Don't Call It A Rebuild

Came across a BR article and I felt a lot of emotions... So I decided to write up some content and vent.

"... We haven’t won crap in LA, but we’re trying to... The goal is to win, and once you win�"if you ever do�"then I don’t want to rebuild anymore. Then you go to the next one. That’s the way I look at it.”

Which totally makes sense... You cannot truly rebuild if you have not won. You can only reset and build with a new direction. We are retooled and trying to achieve NBA glory without our old core. In fact, although this comment may come off as a slap to the faces of CP+BG+DJ (deservedly so), it also comes off as a slap to Doc!

He was not able to govern his team and his talent and mend the pieces and egos... that is part of the job description. So before you go basking in old glory - what they did in Boston was special, and I am not discounting that - you need to try to keep your credibility up.

I know I have not been gung ho for AX-ing Doc, and I still am not... But I do agree that Doc is a bit too slimy for my liking. He is still a coach with great pedigree and resume (as much as people are going to want to discount his accomplishments), and I think he is the right man for the job to start next season. Especially with his son off the team.

But Doc, it'd be great if you can actually win so we can be in a position to rebuild.

And now that we have a competent owner, and we are turning the tide of the franchise don't go off saying things like:

"Rivers said the turmoil is simply part of being with a franchise that's known for it. 'I know,' Rivers said. 'It’s called being with the Clippers.'"

I am not his greatest fan, but I do not see a better alternative. I do see worth in keeping him - as does Mr Jerry West and S Ballmer for all the "in Jerry we trust" people. But Coach Rivers... Talk is cheap.

I think he overachieved last season (and even got Coach of the Year votes! Absurd considering some people that did NOT!) However I do not see his job very safe. He may not be in a hot seat, but I think he knows that Jerry is watching his every move. I am excited for the coaching staff to step up next season, or face the wrath.

If the head coach is fired, we have great options to replace Doc. So I think we should be OK with Doc... if he overachieves, great. If not, fire him and promote from within (or hire new talent mid season.) I really hope that we don't have too much turnover for the sake of our rookies and their growth and reputation of the Clipper front office.

I know we all have strong - and varying - feelings about this topic, but let's be respectful towards each other.

The whole “ it’s the clippers” comment definitely rubbed me the wrong way. I’m not the biggest Doc fan and those comments did t help. I find Doc weak when it comes to Xs and Os. We’ll see what happens though.

I think the few times his coaching shows is off of inbounds plays. He can draw up some pretty well executed offensive sets. Really want to see what he can do with a young PG (kind of what he did with a young Rondo!)

This a different write up from the same interview... It is worth another look:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2018/07/bulpett_doc_rivers_sees_perfect_rebuild_blueprint_in_celtics

Whatever happens with Doc, I’m just glad that West n’ Frank are there. When Doc was in control of personnel... we somehow landed a ton of weak draft picks that didn’t pan out until they left like Bullock and guys like Brice Johnson that haven’t seemed to pan out at all... We cornered the market on lame acquisitions like his....

Doc is slimy and as GM was looking at his appendix. However, he should have gotten Coach of the Year this year. HANDS DOWN. Maybe he does better without CP barking at him.

I can agree with this... It could be worse. It seems like he has done well with a functioning front office. The more power he accumulated, the less his executive decisions panned out for him. I think the presence of a West keeps Doc honest. I think Ballmer trusted Doc too much initially (maybe was a bit naïve and believed Doc's sweet talk.) Jerry is here to cut the BS, and the more he sticks around in Ballmer's ear the better.

I know Ballmer means well, but his inexperience hurt us. However, he brought in Jerry to bring him up to speed. And the separation of Frank from coaching definitely has served the team better. Separation of executive duties for Doc has served him well too.

I am a firm believer that "it could be worse" and Doc as a coach* (with no executive responsibilities, with no Austin on the team) is a good pick moving forward.

86 shared a great link, and these bits I found super interesting:

"Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan are gone, but the franchise isn’t blowing things up and starting over. While they don’t have an established All-Star, they will be one of the deepest teams in the conference. They brought back their top three remaining scorers (Williams, Tobias Harris, and Danilo Gallinari) from a team that won 42 games last season. Williams has won Sixth Man of the Year twice in the past four seasons, and Harris, still only 26, averaged 19.3 points on 47.3 percent shooting in 32 games with the Clippers.

Los Angeles is currently stuck in the middle of the pack out West, trying to rebuild without bottoming out. The Clippers will have enough salary-cap room to offer two maximum contracts in the summer of 2019, but that doesn’t mean any of the elite players expected to hit the market (Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, and Kyrie Irving) will take it. Stars want to pair up with other stars, and the Clippers don’t have much to sell without Paul or Griffin.

They’ll need to strike rich in the middle of the draft, much like Golden State did with Curry (no. 7 in 2009) and Thompson (no. 11 in 2011).

The Clippers really need to get these picks right. Their long-term future is a blank slate. SGA, Robinson, and Williams are their only three players currently under contract for 2020-21. If their two young guards become a SoCal version of the Splash Brothers, the Clippers will be one of the most intriguing free-agent destinations in the NBA. If they fizzle out, the franchise could sink to the bottom of the league. Lob City is over. The hope is Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Jerome Robinson are good enough to one day get a nickname of their own."

I think the recent stars of the 2000’s are finally fizzling out. GSW will hang on a couple more years, but it’s all about the Brow KAT, Kyrie, The Process, Greek Freak, Porzingis, Ayton, Bagley, and others. There’s a lot of turnover happening, and I don’t see any reason that Shai and JRob can’t set the table for a winning culture moving forward. Another FA here, draft pick there, and the ship can turn around.

Hope Doc is gone after the season

LOL having just signed him long term?

Don't hold your breath.

It’s really only an extra year after this season. If they really want to make a play and feel a new voice and clean slate will attract free agents why not do it.

C'mon guys, give the devil his due. He was amazing last year. Please don't castrigate me but I've always felt that BG was a spoiled brat from day one. Sorry, I still think that CP has personality issues. Austin is gone. He now has guys that he can really coach rather that fighting for control.

So much of this depends on vision for the future and we have to have one or we're screwed. How many teams take the gamble and develop their own Steph Curry's and have young stars, cal space and FA's. This is what this whole post has been saying for years. That requires taking a chance. KL is our present and he is not enough. I'd rather suck without KL than suck with him. I'm a guy who used to hate draft picks. Now I'm willing to gamble. I'd rather suck with everybody playing hard as a team rather than sucking and playing iso with KL. KL gives us no future. Bring back Korlov.

Ha. You got caught between castrate and castigate and invented a cool new word in the process.

Castrigate: To cut off someone's balls while mocking them.

you got it

He's here through 2020-2021. That's three seasons. Spin it however you want, but Doc Rivers is going nowhere soon. That debate is done, and we already know the answer is that he's not going anywhere.

I think Doc stays in the near future, but there are people on his staff that can take over if things take a really ugly turn... And that's a nice feeling.

Doc can be harsh on younger players, which I am a little worried about, but I am also intrigued to see how they respond to the challenge.

With Shai (20) Rome (21) and Trezl (24) we've got a somewhat young trio... Although Trezl can be grouped with Harris (26)… There's always Thornwell (23) if he gets signed. Not a huge fan of Evans (22), but he's young too. And if Wallace (24) comes back!

The reset is going to force Doc to keep experimenting with young talent - as he did last season. Especially if our older players are hurt again, or traded.

Another great write up pointing at our precarious roster make-up: http://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/la-sp-clippers-20180708-story.html

With Austin gone, I think that opens up a lot of good minutes for the younger players. We'll see how healthy Bradley, Beverly and Galinari can remain... it can't be as bad as last year (but also, I kind of hope it is.)

We should look to trade these guys if we can find value, if not, really hope the rookies show up at practice and go out and GET/TAKE their minutes. I certainly won't hesitate to use Thornwell and Wallace (if both are available and in uniform) if they have improved since last season.

Evans needs to go. Cut Doc some slack. His playing style will be dictated by the strong points of his players. It can't be the same ole pick and roll. He seemed to have adapted nicely last year. He won't have a bad GM (him). There was locker room drama, CP vs Doc, CP over riding Doc, BG being an a*shole, DJ slacking off and Austin. It sounded like a Mexican soap opera. He will have guys who will respect him as a coach. Beverly can be a leader but who else except Lou? I would keep Beverly solely for that reason. Lou is trade bait but we will never win chit without him. Gallo is too much of an injury risk. As I said in another post, Shai is a gamble that I'm stupidly willing to take but if is to a be good gamble, he has to surrounded by the proper players, not Gallo, Gortat or Boban. Trezz, Hell Yes. Capella like center.

If you're going to take a big risk, go real big or stay or home.

Risking it and playing the rookies a good amount is fine... Hope Doc allows for the opportunity if the young lads have earned it. They should be watched carefully though, their minutes, their movements their wear and tear on their bodies and their recovery.

Hell the reset isn't fully complete as I expect the team to miss the playoffs and hold on to next year's pick. Load up on young talent and use them as leverage to trade, or develop them into stars to carry your franchise over.

I guess the most proper term is rejuvenation period, as we are positioning ourselves for not the next move (read: season), but the one after. It would make no sense to give a pick away in the process.

With the signing yesterday. Does this make clippers number 1 on nba for guys under contract?

Our g league team should be awesome unless big trades coming.

We have to release some players. Evans, Wallace, CJ Williams all gone I suspect. Possibly Thornwell. Possibly Dekker.

I'd still keep Wallace as insurance. If we can't, release this guy so he can try to start up his career. Such a shame if we can't keep him.

I crack a smile every time we agree, you know that?

I know this isn’t the popular belief here, but I’m expecting us to be in the bottom 3 in the West year. Everyone else in the West got better or healthy for now and we did the smart thing, and sat back and rebuilt for the future. You can call it whatever the hell you want, retooling, restructuring, what ever, but Wes Johnson is the only guy on the team from 2 years ago. We’re rebuilding.

I think Juwan and CJ are for sure gone. Maybe try trade Dekker or give him another shot he’s fairly young. I wouldn’t release Thornwell though he’s one of our best defender and defended all the best players last year. Would be really stupid to release him based off summer league. Yes offensively he sucked but he was given the go and in the regular season he’s going to be more restricted and not be asked to carry the offense.

I wouldn’t say bottom three but not in the top 8. I think if and I repeat “if” healthy we can be a fairly good team. If Danillo , Avery, and Pat can stay healthy well be good. Also if SGA happens to be as great as we hope and expect then we’re in good hands. A lot of our guys are going to play with a chip on their shoulders too.

Yezzur! We agree on Trezl and Wallace. Don't think I haven't noticed.

health, as was the case last year, is the deciding factor. I think anywhere between 9th to 11th in the West is likely

In order to grow a rose, you have to cover it with sh*t for a while. We haven't signed Wallace. Dekker has to go.

I don’t know. Looking at the conference the top 8 teams from last year should all be better than us. Memphis gets better just by getting Conley and Gasol healthy. Denver will likely be better than us again, Lakers got better, Dallas and phoenix are sort of question marks. Sacramento is the only team that’s for sure worse still. At least that’s how it seems to me.

You are right but you always have to have high hopes for your team.

How do we not get better by getting Gallo, Beverley, Bradley, and Milos healthy again? We had more injuries to our team last year than any other team which "got healthy". And don't give me that, "those guys are always injured" because if you look at their career averages, even their recent career averages prior to playing with us, all four were injured MUCH more than those averages.

I mean guys...we were using Evans and Thornwell and Wallace for heavy minutes last year, and those guys are not even good to make the team right now!

While everyone is trying to bring in the next big trendy FA... it looks like this team is looking to combine some good, young talent and quality depth. I’m just speculating, but a big name FA will probably be thrown in at some point to complete the puzzle.

We all know there’s plenty of backcourt players. It would be a waste to just dump them outright without anything in return. Now is probably the time to see if guys like CJ, Dekker, and Evans can get us an additional 2nd Rounder for next year. If not, then we should hit em with the ✌🏽 Can 2 way players be traded for? If so, maybe we can use those guys to find one that’s a better fit? IDK the rules there. Possibly a stupid suggestion

This is a great point, I think we should be prepared to actually see a lot of the players that have failed us last year... and they will be better than the young guns we were/are running with. But if people like Wallace, Thornwell and Trezl were able to hold the ship afloat - and not injure themselves, no reason we cannot use them again.

I think last year taught us that we can attain a certain level of success even without using good role players that we were banking on. Pleasantly surprising performances by these players should earn them a shot to compete for a spot (and for minutes) over said proven role players.

But having veteran talent will help, even though the loss of some players will hurt. I don't think we will be anywhere near the top 8, but perhaps in the 10-12 range.

Could it be that Thornwell, Trezz and Wallace ARE good role players and are borderline starters on a bad team. The (good) problem is that this is not going to be our squad come Jan 1. Predictions are impossible.

pg * Milos, Beverly, Shai, Tyrone, Juwan sg * Wesley, Lou, Avery, Jerome, Sindarius, CJ sf * Tobias, Gallinari, Luc, Sam pf * Montrezl, Mike Scott c5 * Gortat, Boban tops on my list is to move Danilo, and without any Baron Davis antics either, as wouldn't give away picks/players on top of Gallinari just to move him.... if he's healthy, he helps keep us competitive, if he's not, he helps w/our draft slotting. the two guys I'd be looking to move asap, and due primarily to injury concerns, are Bradley and Teodosic, and.... due to their contracts being up would look to move Beverly sooner than later and prolly Tobias by the trade deadline, along w/moving Gortat at pretty much anytime, 'specially if we have dug up a center or two by then. and guessing Evans and Thornwell can go to the G league, and.... like having both SGA and JR as my third string backcourt, for now. personally wouldn't force anything and would not make getting our/a lottery pick the focus of my offseason/during season moves, as if we get the pick.... fine, and if we don't.... that's fine as well. and moan and groan all you like 'bout Wes @the 2, and.... I like him there, and think it's an advantage to play him there, and would especially like him there in the playoffs against the likes of Klay and Harden, etc. and just for kix.... this is the lineup I'd be pointing toward, save for trades/draft picks going forward >> pg * Shai, Tyrone sg * Wesley, Jerome sf * Luc, Sam pf * Trezl, Scott c5 * Gortat, Boban looking at the above, would hope for three frontcourt starters (via trade or draft picks) to supplant/supersede those listed, and would be fine (for now) w/tagging on both Juwan and Sindarius to the backcourt depth. if we retain....

and prolly a more likely scenario as things stand, and not too bad of a squad, and.... given the big "if"

pg * Milos, Beverly, Shai

sg * Avery, Lou, Jerome

sf * Tobias, Luc, Wes

pf * Danilo, Scott, Sam

c5 * Gortat, Montrezl, Boban

edit * for posterity's sake (gracias)

Harris plays SF, Gallo plays PF. Harrell coming off bench at PF or C depending on who they are playing.

As stated, you switch Danilo and Tobias.

Then you have two old PGs, neither of whom is particularly accomplished. Beverly is more a 3 and D guy at 6'1" and both are too old to be part of our future. Shai needs to beat those guys out quickly.

If Gallinari spends a lot of the season hurt, I don't see this team winning much. It would be almost the opposite of where our team has been the last five years; strong up front with Blake and DJ and a great PG in Paul. On this team, the strength would be on the wing with Harris and Bradley. Of course, strength is a relative thing. The Pistons had those guys at the 2 and 3 and were going nowhere. Even if Gallinari is healthy, it's hard to see that team making the playoffs in the west.

Would agree. And if Doncic is the real deal, they are better than us as Phoenix may be if Ayton performs well.

One of the things we have going for us is a very good coach in Doc. And I know some of your are gagging now.

I look at our unit individually and I don't see much. As compared to NBA starters;

PG: Milos or Beverly is in about the 30th percentile. 70% of starting NBA PGs would be considered better than either of them.

SG: Bradley 30th percentile among NBA starters. Though excellent defensively, his offensive performance has been headed in the wrong direction for two years now.

SF: Harris. 75th percentile. He's one of the better starting SFs in the league, but far from superstardom.

PF: Gallinari. 40th percentile. If healthy, he would be significantly higher, but he never seems to be healthy.

C: Gortat: 25th percentile. Three quarters of the teams in the league have a better center.

Bench: 90th percentile. We have one of the best second units in the league.

Coach: 90th percentile. Not too many guys who are clearly better than Doc. Pop, Brad S in Boston.

Would definitely prefer to hold on to Wallace over several others.

Double post.

I could see us being competitive in just about every game we play but losing a lot of close ones and finishing in the bottom 10 of teams. But if we show we have a competitive team and then get a lottery pick, I bet a player or two could view themselves as being able to take us to the next level

Can we just sign and start Rick Brunson...

Totally agree. And really want a top ten pick next season. I think that, plus the money we will have to spend next summer will make us a top team again by 2020.

Well that is the point of this thread... I think this is the first time Doc is going to have to coach in a long time. This takes him back to early D Howard days in Orlando - where he did rather well. This year's Doc is going to be similar to last years, in a sense that we are going to see what he can do with coaching responsibilities at a high, and ego massaging and GM responsibilities to a low (no matter what he says.)

Moving forward without Austin is only going to force him to find another bright spot on the roster (another reason for a lot of people to gag.) It opens up some minutes, hopefully for younger players, or healthier veterans.

Let's see how this reset turns out... I see an increased level of competition and expect us to dip in the standings, but that does not necessarily mean we will be playing bad basketball. I think we will be more competitive than we have any business being - not sure if the results will be as good as last year though.

I think this team is going to be very watchable, even if we're not a playoff team. I think Doc also realizes our future is not in Patrick Beverly, Milos, or even Lou. He's going to have to get a lot out of Shai and Robinson if we are going to get back to any level of excellence.

Bradley is 27 years old. There is no definition of old, even in the NBA, which includes age 27. Beverley just turned 30 a few days ago. Milos is 31. None of those is considered "old". Pretty universally considered "in their prime" years.

End of their prime years. Guards often fade from the scene sooner than bigs. If we were in win-now mode, they would be fine in terms of their age. Given that we are building for two years from now, keeping players in their 30's is not to the long-term benefit of the franchise, save for what they can teach to the younger players and we don't need all of them to do that. I think we will see several of these guys traded. Also, I did not mention Bradley as being one of the old guys.