Rumor: DeAndre Jordan for Al Horford & DeMarre Carroll?

**** This is what I have been saying all along. Exactly what I've been saying. I've also said Doc's comments about DJ getting what he deserves (max) is just stroking the guy to get the most out of him. I know this is a rumor but glad I am not the only viewing this from a different angle.

http://hoopshabit.com/2014/11/19/nba-rumors-los-angeles-clippers-trade-al-horford/

I disagree, and this article fails to acknowledge the salary cap is going WAY up, and a max contract for Jordan will look like a normal average contract just a year later.

Even with the salary cap going up, you still can't overpay a guy if you want the team to be strong going forward. Other teams will also have more money to spend. The teams that spend their money most wisely, bringing in the right players at the right price or below, win championships. Those that overpay, win nothing and jam themselves up for years. Think of all the max players, who may have been great players, but at max money were liabilities rather than assets; Joe Johnson, Stoudemire, Deron Williams, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph.

You pay a guy the max, you need to be sure he makes you a championship contender. Blake does. Paul does. DJ? No way.

Al Horford is a better player than DJ. A better C? Well, he's certainly not as big, he's technically more of a PF, doesn't rebound as well, doesn't have the length or shot blocking. In terms of pure basketball skill, well he's a better scorer, shooter, ball handler, a good passing big, a 74% FT shooter for his career and makes $12 mil for this year and next. Would I take the deal if it was real? I would as long as Horford won't have another explosion of pectoral muscles.

Mistwell, the team isn't looking to pay DJ the max either way, all DJ asking for the max talks have been speculation, there's nothing concrete saying that, it's just assumption / speculation so far.

Even with a higher cap, there's nothing "normal or average" about $20,000,000 a year... which is the max for a 7-year vet.

If it did go ahead..........................................is it a good deal? I haven't seen the Hawks play much.

If it did go ahead..........................................is it a good deal? I haven't seen the Hawks play much.

Both nice players, but Horford is an injury concern and like Agent said, he's kinda more of a PF. We'd also have to throw in something else to make salaries work, and I'd want picks from them too because they could well end up in the lottery.

Don't really think this has legs, though. Not exactly a top-drawer source.

This would be the worse trade in clippers history. If we want an offensive center with no defense just start Hawes. As we have seen a non-defensive/rebounding center next to BLAKE is horrid.

Horford is a good offensive Power Forward who plays the center position. His rebounding is total crap, his defense is well below average. Not to mention coming back from injury. He has been a bit injury prone the last 3 years.

Who ever proposed this trade should be shot.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/taking-the-nbas-temperature-clearing-up-some-big-picture-questions/

An odd development this season so far has been this. It generally hasn't been an issue in the past, but it has been this season due to one big thing:

"But the spacing is tighter now, since the world knows Matt Barnes is in a horrific shooting slump:"

Rumors, rumors and more rumors. Speculating that his agent WILL ask for the max is just speculation.

Like Horford and Carroll, but how much do you think Horford's agent is going to ask for in a couple of years when he, at 30 becomes a FA. Carroll IS a FA after this year.

This says it all for me:

This trade may have legs, but after head coach Doc Rivers poor signings of Douglas-Roberts this season in addition to last year’s flops of Jared Dudley, Antawn Jamison and Byron Mullens, it’s time to question his roster building prowess. Second-best coach currently in the NBA without a doubt, and it could be argued that with the Clippers cap flexibility (or lack there of), Rivers compiled the best team he could. Should he pull the trigger on this trade or any similar variation, it won’t be for the Clippers betterment.

We need to find that rumor on getting a smart young GM, LOL.

DJ is NOT a problem,no SF is the problem.

DJ is NOT a problem,no SF is the problem.

That's the whole point of the trade rumor, though... Slight downgrade at center for a major upgrade at SF.

DJ is NOT a problem,no SF is the problem.

Yeah but this deal gets Horford and a SF (Carroll)

That's the whole point of the trade rumor, though... Slight downgrade at center for a major upgrade at SF.

Go after Caroll next season when he's a FA.

Go after Caroll next season when he's a FA.

Would we have the money with DJ's cap hold?

Even declining Crawford and Barnes' options, looks like we're in the high 50's before even considering DJ's 150% hold or whatever it is.

Approximate #'s...

CP3 $21.5m

Blake $19m

Redick $7m

Hawes $5.5m

Farmar, Bullock, Wilcox $5m

Stretched players $1m

Looks like about $59mil plus DJ's hold at ~$17mil... not a lot of wiggle-room there.

I wonder what the players mentality are when their coach is trying to trade them secretly.

I wonder what the players mentality are when their coach is trying to trade them secretly.

There's no evidence that anybody is "trying to trade" anybody... just some dude from a podcast spitballing. At this point, it's no more valid than the CTB trade ideas thread... and some of those are just pure comedy.

I'm a Dj supporter, but that trade is intriguing. Carroll is exactly the type of role player we are missing, I'd also be open to a w. chandler for JJ trade too.

The Horford thing is cool because it makes both 4 and 5 positions threats to score.

Can we trade mike Woodson for d'antoni (I know d'antoni is unsigned)?

I really think that DJ isn't going to push for a max contract, rather sign the same kind of contract he's been under. Possibly even take a price cut knowing what the team needs to accomplish in the offseason. I think declining Jamal's and Matt's team options would be the best thing to do. We don't really have an option at this point and both will probably be in trade talks along with JJ, CDR, Udoh, and (though it makes no sense) DJ as well. There are no "safe" players on the Clippers anymore besides Griffin and Paul. DJ isn't even safe because of him staying around the same level of play he had last season. Just like an announcer said recently, DJ needs to start dominating games down low 3 out of 4 games. He's completely capable of achieving that, it's all a matter of him (and the entire team really) starting to play with a sense of urgency.

That's what I am saying though - it WON'T be max in just 2 years. You'd be locking him in at a fair bit lower than max.

Now, I am not saying I am against the trade - I am just against this assumption that the max now is the same as the max later. Remember, Carroll and Horford will also demand more money with their contracts are up, and at least one of those will be when the max is substantially higher than it is right now. You might in fact be arguing for a worse salary situation than paying DJ the current max.

Yeah $20M for DJ is pretty steep, particularly since he can only get $15M elsewhere. I suspect they're talking about that $15M number.

Amazed by this seeing as all three guys haven't been to the conference finals. Does this mean Paul and griffin should make less because its been some years and all three are still yet to get even close to passing the second round. Just funny how we label players.

DJ for Horford and Carroll?? I'm a huge Horford fan and I'm still not 100% sure I'd do this.

Horford is too injury prone, but when he's healthy he's basically Marc Gasol.

If it was DJ and Bullock for Horford and Korver I'd do it in a heart beat.

DeMarre is good but he's not as trust worthy as Korver.

I really think that DJ isn't going to push for a max contract, rather sign the same kind of contract he's been under. Possibly even take a price cut knowing what the team needs to accomplish in the offseason. I think declining Jamal's and Matt's team options would be the best thing to do. We don't really have an option at this point and both will probably be in trade talks along with JJ, CDR, Udoh, and (though it makes no sense) DJ as well. There are no "safe" players on the Clippers anymore besides Griffin and Paul. DJ isn't even safe because of him staying around the same level of play he had last season. Just like an announcer said recently, DJ needs to start dominating games down low 3 out of 4 games. He's completely capable of achieving that, it's all a matter of him (and the entire team really) starting to play with a sense of urgency.

I'm not sure I'd be so quick to decline the team option on Jamal. With that $59mil we already have committed plus a cap hold on DJ of around $17mil, we're behind the 8-ball. Let's say we can pick up Carroll or somebody similar for the MLE... well, then we've hard-capped ourselves again while losing a lot of production off the bench.

If we're essentially replacing Jamal with Carroll, it would probably be better to do it sooner rather than later - via trade - since Carroll's cap hold would be less that Jamal's salary, and depending on the tax threshold next year (& the apron), we *might* have a full MLE left to work with to replace Jamal's bench points.

Not sure how we send out a $5.5m player and receive a $2.4m player... might have to bring in an expiring scrub from a 3rd team and waive one of our own for the roster spot.

It's all very confusing to me, but I wouldn't want to lose a piece like Jamal AND have to trust in finding a SF in FA when were likely to be up against - or even over - the soft cap.

If it was DJ and Bullock for Horford and Korver I'd do it in a heart beat.

Always thought Korver was just a bigger Redick... I'd be wary of that wing combo defensively.

DJ/Redick/Barnes for Horford/Korver/Sefalosha?

OK. Let's look at this objectively. DJ is a legit center in a League bereft of true centers. He is durable. That is VERY important. DJ plays most games, other centers do not. He is also friends with the other Big Three -- chemistry is very important.

DJ is not the problem.

The problem is a High School level (at least that is how other small forward treat our SFs) player at the small forward position. Trading DJ does nothing in this regard. It is up to Doc to pick up a waiver cut, a D-League gem or an unhappy player from another team. That is what GMs do. That is what scouts are for. Pops TRADED for Kawai Leonard -- he was not drafted. (Too bad we didn't draft Paul George when we had the chance. But that is another story altogether.)

Once that problem is solved, we are in the hunt for the title.

Overpaid, is overpaid. Wether it's a max contract or not, they all add up. If you give a player more than he's worth, you get yourself to the salary cap that much quicker. DJ is not a max player now, in this pay scale and would be overpaid no matter how much the cap goes up.

San Antonio is so good because Duncan, Ginobli and Parker all agreed to be underpaid. We can't expect that here, but anyone overpaid becomes a huge liability.

Literally nobody is saying that DJ is "the problem"... just that he's one of very few tradable players we have.

Jamal, JJ, DJ... that's IT.

Everybody else is either too valuable to let go, or too useless to get us anything but scrubs in return.

I think Korver becomes less appealing when not paired with JJ on offense. The two of them would make opposing defenders heads spin trying to chase them.

On defense Korver is better than JJ at their respective positions but he's not going to shut anyone down.

Yeah, I know Korver's a LITTLE better than JJ on defense, but I could live with one elite shooter on the wing if we could get a longer, quicker defender at the 2-spot.

If we were giving up the most valuable player in the trade, the least they could do is let us upgrade Barnes to Sefo.

We may have another IF he doesn't start producing in relationship to what they're paying him. Hint, it's not the shorter of the two, lol.

first off, DJ is the man, plain and simple.... you trade him, you trade away your (most immediate) shot @the championship.

the biggest challenge is that CP3 & Blake are not better than their current championship contenders, i.e. LeBron, Durant, Duncan, and.... are losing ground due to marginal returns on their supporting cast.

the secondary and perhaps more pressing concern is that Doc Rivers is anything but a personnel person. Ballmer needs to get him a divorce from those responsibilities yesterday.

a tertiary concern is that we went from Caron Butler and Eric Bledsoe to JJ Redick & Jared Dudley, and have slid downhill ever since, especially on the defensive end of the court.

will not claim to be the personnel man that Gary Sacks is, let alone the wonder boy/GM to be, Chris Paul, and.... would readily trade JJ or CP3 well before thinking of trading Blake and/or DJ.

and last.... you never know quite to the degree that injuries are taking their toll w/Blake and/or CP3.

ps. have to add the disclaimer, as am sure most will go straight there.... love CP3 and real eyes that Blake and our playoff chances would be close to nonexistent w/o him, almost exactly the same situation as Elton Brand before and after Sam I Am.

We may have another IF he doesn't start producing in relationship to what they're paying him. Hint, it's not the shorter of the two, lol.

Agree that he's not producing right now, but even if it continues the golden boy would be given a pass until his value plummetted anyway. He's here until his player option year, at least.

Agree that he's not producing right now, but even if it continues the golden boy would be given a pass until his value plummetted anyway. He's here until his player option year, at least.

Then I hope he finds himself soon, because being just the golden boy in the end won't mean much except all that gold he'll be stealing, err, collecting.

He's been the biggest disappointment on the team so far.

Overpaid, is overpaid. Wether it's a max contract or not, they all add up. If you give a player more than he's worth, you get yourself to the salary cap that much quicker.

We're already well past the salary cap, we're just using bird rights and exceptions at this point, so overpaid doesn't really matter much anymore. Also the definition of overpaid will almost certainly change in two years after the cap shoots up, to the point he wouldn't necessarily be overpaid anymore and guys like Paul and Griffin will be below market value.

As for Horford, his health just isn't reliable enough, makes the deal too high risk.

To most other teams, DJ is definitely not worth the max contract. However he is worth that much to the Clips.

He's the only big man on our team can rebound and defend right now.

Other teams might see him as an offensive liability, but Blake / CP's ability to throw accurate lobs makes him much more dangerous on offense than people think.

I would not resign DJ because of cap flexibility / he can't hit FTs. But I do believe he's worth max contract.

Added a poll- would you do such a trade? It's a difficult one but I think I would. Al Horford is an All Star, and DeMarre Caroll could be on the rise. The only issue is that both could be injury prone, so that's what would make it an especially tough decision.

Trade is OK if Al hordford had better health, Carroll is definitely a upgrade on defense , and it would all Barnes to come off the bench.

It's not whether the Clips would do this, it's whether ATL would bite. An all star C + a long term answer at SF in exchange for DJ. Where do I sign! It would be unbelievably good for us. 18 months ago this proposal could have been found on the Onion.

Cap space would be a non-issue for us for the foreseeable future. We'd have the team already intact, albeit at a luxury tax price but I think Ballmer can afford it. A bench rotation of Jamal, Barnes and Hawes, 3 true all stars in the starting rotation, a real starting SF, plus a bunch of shooters. You can't do much better under the NBA CBA.

Why would ATL want to do this? They have no young SFs coming up and Horford is by far their best player., even if he's injury prone and has had a slow start this season What's their motivation to move those two guys in order to pay DJ the max next summer?

If this deal is ever on the table Doc will jump on it in a heartbeat.

Eh...yes, I would do this trade, but with reluctance.

My only concern is that people here have been complaining about how undersized the team is right now, and as good as Horford is, he's definitely a physical downgrade from DJ. I don't know if those people realize that.

I think most people here realize that DJ is a ridiculously gifted athlete in a league full of great athletes. However, I wouldn't call Al Horford at 6'10" 245 much of a downgrade in size when DJ is 6'11" 250 (according to basketball reference on both players). While Horford isn't the incredible athlete that DJ is, his well balanced game on both ends of the floor really helps to make up for any "physical downgrade" in my opinion.

Let's not forget, this isn't just about trading DJ for Horford straight up- I wouldn't do that trade right now. This is about losing one good starter and getting two good starters back at a time when this team desperately needs a starting small forward.

If I were Doc Rivers and this trade was actually made available, I'd sign the dotted line before they could change their minds.

While this is only a rumor, my reason for putting this up is because this has been a hot topic coming into this season. This article has also been exactly what I have been trying to convey. You can't play a one way player close to max. Just because the cap is going to rise, doesn't mean you break the bank on players that are first up for that prize. While DJ deserves a raise (I do agree with that), his money has to come based off of this CBA, not something that hasn't happened yet. The rise in cap should be reserved for the superstars (to keep them), and fill the glaring hole at the SF position. It should not be made to the first available player up for a new contract, and based off what hasn't happened yet.

If DJ is looking for the most money, then maybe, if cap rules allow, we can sign and trade him when that time comes. It's still early though but if you guys think the FO isn't thinking about this, they aren't doing their job. This is not about dissing DJ, although I am notorious for doing that, this is about what's best for the team. "It's not personal, it's strictly business."

I think I'd prefer doing a trade with the Bucks for Giannis.

DJ/future 1st for Larry Sanders/Antetokounmpo.

Giannis is a versatile player and can play 1-5 but I think ultimately he'll be known as a SF which is the same position as Jabari.

I'm sure the Bucks are in love with The Greek Freak, but if I'm them I'd rather build around Jabari.

i'll give up dj for horford in a second

Would love to get The Greek Freak, but he ain't going nowhere (unless Brian Colangeo suddenly became the Bucks GM, LOL). The Bucks WILL built around both Jabari and Anteokounmpo.

Hopefully we can target a young SF like Harris or Harkless from the Magic. Either one would work for our needs.

Harris is probably the least obtainable of all 3 SF's.

I like Harkless but I don't know what his price tag is. Apparently the Magic love him.

Being athletic doesn't mean much. It's what you do with athleticism. Case in point Duncan. Unless he develops some offense he may be maxed out as far as usefulness. If we do get a long SG or SF for Reddick we will need another scorer and it will have to be low post.

Al horford has mentioned multiple times that he dislikes playing center. much more comfortable at PF