Let's Talk About Tobias Harris

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Agent0
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Most of the focus of the trade has been about Blake, and rightfully so, but what about Tobias Harris, who is one of the main returns for the Clippers here. Seasons stats:
    32.6 mpg / 18.1 ppg / 5.1 rpg / 2.0 apg / 1.1 tpg / 45% FG / 41% 3PT / 85% FT
Statistically, his biggest jump this season is in 3PA and 3PT%, he credits it to having LASIK. Overall the positives are that he is efficient (56.4 TS%, 113 Ortg), low turnover, he can score, 18.1 ppg in 32.7 mpg. Defensively, he's not know for his defense, but he....


jarca
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To me he already reached his ceiling. I think his stats this year at 18 points per game pretty much as good as it’s gonna get. Realistically he may be around 13-17 PPG


clipperboy24
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I kind of agree with Jarca on him reaching his ceiling. Would love for him to bump up his rebounding to 7, would really help. I think his defense is better than Blakes which is nice. Excited to see how the team plays


A7XDreamTheaterClipps
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He seems like he can be a really nice complimentary player. I like how he can create his own shot. Would've been a really nice player to have during the Lob City era. If the Clippers hit a homerun on 2 nice players, Harris can be a nice 3rd or 4th option.


jtwinnaz
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I had him on my fantasy team a few years back when he first got to Det and I remember him going off in the second half of the season averaging something like 19pts 10reb 1 blk and .8 3pt a game and he was pretty consistent from what I recall. Now that he is shooting lights out from deep I would like to imagine he will avg about 21pts 8reb 1blk and 2 3pts this year. He is strong and can get to the line. He is very underrated and good person. Very excited to see him in a clipper uniform.


ohMEohMy!
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Great post, Agent0!

While not providing the post game force and playmaking of Blake, Tobias Harris should really help with spacing, and the high-paced, up and down, perimeter-oriented game that the Clippers have adopted this year. His shooting will be crucial. He's shown flashes of playmaking with Detroit, and hopefully he gets better with making the right drive and kick out passes to the perimeter, or finds our bigs or backdoor cutters down low. Think that's the next evolution in his game.

Also, I don't know how some of you guys can say that he's hit his ceiling? He literally has made a jump in his game from last year to this year and is only 25 years old. By all accounts, Tobias is a really hard worker too. I hope he proves the doubters wrong.


david
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Nice stuff Agent! Guys like Milos & Lou Williams are going to find him often. He has a nice spin move on the drive as well. Pretty athletic too. Can't wait to see how he, Bradley & Marjanovic fit in. The team certainly has gotten much better from the outside all of a sudden.


Keatonsays
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Tobias Harris is a coveted player around the league. For that reason, i don't believe he'll stay with us too long. I've always like his game. A hardworker and improved shooter. Not psyched about his rebounding but I love his youth and dedication to improvement. I think he can still get better, but what I like most about him is that he can play the 3 and 4, while Blake could ONLY play 4. That's the lone advantage I see him having over Blake (other than attitude) but very happy to have him on the team!


LA_Clipper818
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Tobias is still fairly young, so I’m hoping he can increase his ppg and rebounding. I believe we have him for two season after this season with played option on the last year. I’m also hoping we can resign Avery. Who knows I think defensively we will be better.


jarca
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ohMEohMy! wrote:
Great post, Agent0!

While not providing the post game force and playmaking of Blake, Tobias Harris should really help with spacing, and the high-paced, up and down, perimeter-oriented game that the Clippers have adopted this year. His shooting will be crucial. He's shown flashes of playmaking with Detroit, and hopefully he gets better with making the right drive and kick out passes to the perimeter, or finds our bigs or backdoor cutters down low. Think that's the next evolution in his game.

Also, I don't know how some of you guys can say that he's hit his ceiling? He literally has made a jump in his game from last year to this year and is only 25 years old. By all accounts, Tobias is a really hard worker too. I hope he proves the doubters wrong.

Because this is the NBA. Usually with thousands of scouts and data, people have a good idea of who Tobias Harris is. He can improve his shooting % but he's not all of the sudden become athletic or have incredible footwork, fast first steps that a lot of times give superstar an edge over regular players. He played enough minutes to for all of us to know that he's a good role player which is not a bad thing.


Cliptonyte
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I have liked Tobias Harris for a few years, so I am pleased that he is now on the Clippers.


Dirtydunks
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jarca wrote:
Because this is the NBA. Usually with thousands of scouts and data, people have a good idea of who Tobias Harris is. He can improve his shooting % but he's not all of the sudden become athletic or have incredible footwork, fast first steps that a lot of times give superstar an edge over regular players. He played enough minutes to for all of us to know that he's a good role player which is not a bad thing.
Thousands of scouts? Have you spoken to or read read their accounts of him? All of the “data” is probably about half the equation. I’d be more interested in what Jerry West has to say about him and actually see him play for an extended period with this team before drawing such conclusions. I have heard that he has gotten better every year and that he’s the one guy on our team that can actually guard the superstar wings out there. Let’s watch him for a bit and give him a chance and then everyone can judge on their own.


ClipperPostman
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jarca wrote:
Because this is the NBA. Usually with thousands of scouts and data, people have a good idea of who Tobias Harris is. He can improve his shooting % but he's not all of the sudden become athletic or have incredible footwork, fast first steps that a lot of times give superstar an edge over regular players. He played enough minutes to for all of us to know that he's a good role player which is not a bad thing.

Definitely not true. Tobias came in the league at 19 and is only 25. He improves every year. Typically a player peaks at 27-28 unless your Lebron.

Tobias clearly focused on improving his 3pt shot, and saw tremendous improvement.

He now can work on his Post game. Not sure what you mean you can’t develop footwork and postgame.

Look at Klay Thompson. By your logic he would be a pure catch and shoot guy from the 3.

He actually had developed a nice mid post game that he didn’t come into the league with.

Tobias will peak at about 23 ppg, 8 rbg, and with 2 solid go-to post moves.


A7XDreamTheaterClipps
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Tobias will never be great as the focal point. He'll be great as a support player if he's not too expensive.


Agent0
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I'd say Harris' ideal role for a team that wants to contend is as a third option. If he makes a big jump in his game, he could move up to second option on that kind of team. If you give him the minutes he can give you 20/6/2, at his 32-33 minutes, 18/5/2. On the current Clippers he can be a second option to Lou along with Gallo.

His game actually resembles sort of a mediocre man's young Carmelo, doesn't draw fouls as well and isn't as prolific in the post.

The good thing is that he has continuously improved every year over his career, that's a big positive. There's a chance he still makes some improvements over the next two years as he really solidifies himself into his prime, but we'll see.

The biggest thing for him is to try and become more of an impact defender and rebounder, that is what will increase his on court value more than anything.


JudahDub
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With the system the clips are playing in, I think Tobias can flourish. At best, he can be a KD-lite


jarca
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JudahDub wrote:
With the system the clips are playing in, I think Tobias can flourish. At best, he can be a KD-lite

Stop it please LOL


JudahDub
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jarca wrote:
Stop it please LOL

Never said KD. I said lite. He can be decent. He doesn’t have to be KD. He just has to be a version of it. With the way the clips are, he can have a career year like Lou or Jamal did or just fizzle like Lance, either way, got to be optimistic about his upward trend. At bes, he can be what we all thought Wes could be


Agent0
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JudahDub wrote:
Never said KD. I said lite. He can be decent. He doesn’t have to be KD. He just has to be a version of it. With the way the clips are, he can have a career year like Lou or Jamal did or just fizzle like Lance, either way, got to be optimistic about his upward trend. At bes, he can be what we all thought Wes could be
Well I don't really think his outlook is one polar opposite or the other, lol, he should do well, the question though is how well, and that is what we will find out.


JudahDub
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Agent0 wrote:
Well I don't really think his outlook is one polar opposite or the other, lol, he should do well, the question though is how well, and that is what we will find out.

I think he will do well in the system. He has shooters around him. It’ll be a fast team now. Love Blake but he tends to point the ball too long. This team will move the ball


LA_Clipper818
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Great game by Tobias. Looked confident and compliments Danillo really well. Now let’s see if he can be consistent, also if Danillo can stay healthy.


Agent0
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JVG mentioned that Stan really loves Tobias, and trading him was hard. Consistency wise:

Scoring

Tobias has scored in double digits in 46/49 games played. He's scored 15+ points in 34/49 games, 17+ points in 28/49 games, and 19+ points in 24/49 games, so every other game at the least we should expect 19+ points, expect double digits basically every game, and expect 15+ points 70% of the time. In terms of scoring, that's pretty good consistency.

Shooting Efficiency

His TS% is 56% or over in 25/49 games and under 50% in 12/49 games, the rest are in between. So...half the time he's efficient, another quarter he's below average efficiency, and another quarter, he's just inefficient.

3PT Shooting

He's hit at least 1 3PT shot in 43/49 games, and at least 2 in 34/49 games.

Turnovers and Assists

He has only had more than 2 turnovers in 3 total games, and more than 1 turnover in 17/49 games, so he rarely has high turnover games, but that's also partly because he's not a playmaker, he has had 3+ assists in just 14/49 games, so he isn't going to be creating much for others, so it is good that he isn't turning it over if not creating much.


worm
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Let's see when Austin comes back ,idk about the ball movement


cashdld
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JudahDub wrote:
Never said KD. I said lite. He can be decent. He doesn’t have to be KD. He just has to be a version of it. With the way the clips are, he can have a career year like Lou or Jamal did or just fizzle like Lance, either way, got to be optimistic about his upward trend. At best, he can be what we all thought Wes could be
He reminds me more so of Carmelo minus the ball stopping, and chucking. Tobias picks his spots and takes what the defense gives him.


Dirtydunks
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jarca wrote:
Because this is the NBA. Usually with thousands of scouts and data, people have a good idea of who Tobias Harris is. He can improve his shooting % but he's not all of the sudden become athletic or have incredible footwork, fast first steps that a lot of times give superstar an edge over regular players. He played enough minutes to for all of us to know that he's a good role player which is not a bad thing.
He looked very athletic especially with that thunderous two hand dunk down the lane. I don’t know why people insist on pretending they know more than they actually do. Just chill a little bit and let his playing do the talking. He is an excellent player and I can see him being a nice piece to build around.


jarca
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Dirtydunks wrote:
He looked very athletic especially with that thunderous two hand dunk down the lane. I don’t know why people insist on pretending they know more than they actually do. Just chill a little bit and let his playing do the talking. He is an excellent player and I can see him being a nice piece to build around.

Everybody in the NBA dunks lol. I’ll happily eat crow if he puts up 24 PPG


ohMEohMy!
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jarca wrote:
Everybody in the NBA dunks lol. I’ll happily eat crow if he puts up 24 PPG

So you'll only be pleased with him if he becomes a Top 13 scorer in the league? Because that's what 24 ppg is right now this season and that seems like an unfairly high bar.


jarca
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ohMEohMy! wrote:
So you'll only be pleased with him if he becomes a Top 13 scorer in the league? Because that's what 24 ppg is right now this season and that seems like an unfairly high bar.

Naw My initial assessment is he's pretty much reach his ceiling and others were disagreeing. Agent0 said it best, he's not a cornerstone but will be best served if he's our third option. If we consistently get 13-20 points from his while shooting efficiently I am happy


Agent0
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cashdld wrote:
He reminds me more so of Carmelo minus the ball stopping, and chucking. Tobias picks his spots and takes what the defense gives him.
Agreed, that is also the comparison I used earlier. He's better than current Carmelo, but he's a middle class man's prime Carmelo, not nearly as prolific a scorer, can't draw fouls as well, etc. He might try a little more on defense, but still not much of an impact defender, but he's not an iso ball stopper. He's like Carmelo the one season with Andre Miller where George Karl really hammered on him about attacking quickly.


clipperharry
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trade austin , I'm excited to see if we make the play offs , beverly said he might be back !!


jarca
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clipperharry wrote:
trade austin , I'm excited to see if we make the play offs , beverly said he might be back !!

Agreed. Let's get at least a second round for him. Too many guards in our line up and he's the most expendable while making the most money


clipper*joe
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I'm so glad people are starting to embrace this change. It was needed so badly and if not for some fortunate situations (CP3 and BG trades), we'd be singing a different tune. Even if it didn't work out half as well, I'd still say it was the right move. My last major change is getting rid of Doc. His contract is almost up. Austin would have to earn his spot with another coach. I'm open to keep him and let work for it. If he keeps his job after that, I would welcome him open arms and forget how he got here. I think Doc has done more damage to this team and it's a damn shame he's one of the last ones standing while others are fixing what he ruined.

I don't know of any team getting rid of their whole core before firing the coach. It just never happens.The coach is usually the first to go but not with Doc. But then again,Doc is also the only coach in history to trade for his son, literally offer him a multi-year contract, and hoist his son's image in the arena the team plays in. So as you can see, Doc has gotten away with lot of stuff no coach has ever had to deal with....And never will.


ClipperPostman
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cashdld wrote:
He reminds me more so of Carmelo minus the ball stopping, and chucking. Tobias picks his spots and takes what the defense gives him.

I really like Tobias. But he couldn’t hold Prime Melos jock strap.


Agent0
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clipperharry wrote:
trade austin , I'm excited to see if we make the play offs , beverly said he might be back !!
Let's have Houston also get the #1 seed from GS and have the Clippers v Rockets first-round matchup, even if Blake isn't there, it would be fun.


Agent0
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ClipperPostman wrote:
I really like Tobias. But he couldn’t hold Prime Melos jock strap.
I'm assuming he's talking about playstyle not so much level of play as I can't imagine he would be suggesting that Tobias is a capable 27-29 ppg scorer, multiple year All-Star and All-NBA level player. Style of play wise though, yea, he's a middle-class man's version of prime Melo who plays off the ball and with quick attacks more. It's certainly a good thing, you didn't want Carmelo doing too much ball stopping, but he was good enough that you can work with it and be good, so you definitely don't want a middle-class version of him holding the ball and isolating a lot, that would make for a not so good player. That would be like Rudy Gay Memphis/Raptors days or something.


pageC4
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ohMEohMy! wrote:
So you'll only be pleased with him if he becomes a Top 13 scorer in the league? Because that's what 24 ppg is right now this season and that seems like an unfairly high bar.
Well, let's all settle down. Can we just say that Tobias Harris is a good player, and one that would be part of a good team Smile I don't think West is done yet!


pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
I'm so glad people are starting to embrace this change. It was needed so badly and if not for some fortunate situations (CP3 and BG trades), we'd be singing a different tune. Even if it didn't work out half as well, I'd still say it was the right move. My last major change is getting rid of Doc. His contract is almost up. Austin would have to earn his spot with another coach. I'm open to keep him and let work for it. If he keeps his job after that, I would welcome him open arms and forget how he got here. I think Doc has done more damage to this team and it's a damn shame he's one of the last ones standing while others are fixing what he ruined.

I don't know of any team getting rid of their whole core before firing the coach. It just never happens.The coach is usually the first to go but not with Doc. But then again,Doc is also the only coach in history to trade for his son, literally offer him a multi-year contract, and hoist his son's image in the arena the team plays in. So as you can see, Doc has gotten away with lot of stuff no coach has ever had to deal with....And never will.

The league implemented the Steppien rule to prevent a team from mortgaging away its future through trading picks...do you think they will install some kind of nepotism rule after this? I think it's real, and a great idea...it's sad to say Doc and his son benefited while the Clippers got sh#t on.


pageC4
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jarca wrote:
Agreed. Let's get at least a second round for him. Too many guards in our line up and he's the most expendable while making the most money
Yeah we do have a lot fo guards. time to start piling up front court depth. I can't remember who said but someone alluded to this surplus possible being packaged for an elite player, which would be a good package along with a draft pick. Imagine that you are going to lose a good player, but someone at least offers you a package of players and draft pick..it makes the loss tolerable


toohipcliptoslip
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You guys have no faith in Austin. I hope he plays like a star for the rest of the year. --- So maybe we can get something good if we can trade him in the off season.


Clemenza
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
You guys have no faith in Austin. I hope he plays like a star for the rest of the year. --- So maybe we can get something good if we can trade him in the off season.

It all depends on if he plays within the offense or if he's simply out to "get his" and try to show that he's not still in the league because of his pops


clipper*joe
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
You guys have no faith in Austin. I hope he plays like a star for the rest of the year. --- So maybe we can get something good if we can trade him in the off season.

No need to have faith in Austin, his dad takes care of that. No need to hope for Austin to play like a star, we've already found his replacement....Wallace. The pieces are falling into place and you're starting to see who is expendable and who's a keeper.


SamMays
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Keep Austin or Bradley. There is no need for both. Keep whichever one is cheaper.

Harris is a keeper.

Harrell and Wallace must also be kept.

The rest of this roster should be in transition, including Teodosic, though do no move him unless a solid, pass first PG comes back. We have seen how valuable a guy like him is on the floor. He's not much of a defender, but neither was Steve Nash. A point guard who is a great passer and can hit the open three, is worth his weight in gold in the NBA.

DJ can come back only on a relatively cheap contract (less than he is making now). I know this is unlikely, so trading him would become a must.

Gallinari seems an idea front court mate with Harris. If only he could be healthy.

Wesley, Lou and Beverly all probably should go, mostly due to age and cost.


LAC_12
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clipper*joe wrote:
I'm so glad people are starting to embrace this change. It was needed so badly and if not for some fortunate situations (CP3 and BG trades), we'd be singing a different tune. Even if it didn't work out half as well, I'd still say it was the right move. My last major change is getting rid of Doc. His contract is almost up. Austin would have to earn his spot with another coach. I'm open to keep him and let work for it. If he keeps his job after that, I would welcome him open arms and forget how he got here. I think Doc has done more damage to this team and it's a damn shame he's one of the last ones standing while others are fixing what he ruined.

I don't know of any team getting rid of their whole core before firing the coach. It just never happens.The coach is usually the first to go but not with Doc. But then again,Doc is also the only coach in history to trade for his son, literally offer him a multi-year contract, and hoist his son's image in the arena the team plays in. So as you can see, Doc has gotten away with lot of stuff no coach has ever had to deal with....And never will.

Championship pedigree will do that to you... Also he has been doing rather well this season...

Now that THAT has been said (as a possible explanation as to why he hasn't been sacked)...

I agree with you 100% and I think so does management and ownership. Doc will not be resigned, he is going to finish up his time here, and be on his way. He is no longer a part of the "PLAN"


pageC4
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SamMays wrote:
Keep Austin or Bradley. There is no need for both. Keep whichever one is cheaper.

Harris is a keeper.

Harrell and Wallace must also be kept.

The rest of this roster should be in transition, including Teodosic, though do no move him unless a solid, pass first PG comes back. We have seen how valuable a guy like him is on the floor. He's not much of a defender, but neither was Steve Nash. A point guard who is a great passer and can hit the open three, is worth his weight in gold in the NBA.

DJ can come back only on a relatively cheap contract (less than he is making now). I know this is unlikely, so trading him would become a must.

Gallinari seems an idea front court mate with Harris. If only he could be healthy.

Wesley, Lou and Beverly all probably should go, mostly due to age and cost.

What is interesting is that many of the players we got in the trades are either gone after this season or in two.

Lou Williams, Avery Bradley, Montrezl Harrell, CJ Williams, Jamil Wilson, and Tryone Wallace are all players whose contracts are up after this season.

Deandre Jordan, Austin Rivers, Milos Teodosic, Wesley Johnson, Boban Marjanovic, Patrick Beverley, and Tobias Harris are players whose contracts expire in the 2018-2019 season.

Part of what should factor in this equation is whether we make it into the playoffs. If we do make it in, some of the older guys definitely should be keep in order for this team to be competitive, but if the Clippers don't make it, then we should look to jettison the older vets. Overall, the players we should definitely keep should be:

Harrell, Wallace, and Harris (these are the same you have as well Sam)

Then we should look to continue the process of stockpiling picks and young guys for those that aren't part of the plan (if we don't get a playoff spot that is).


SamMays
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pageC4 wrote:
What is interesting is that many of the players we got in the trades are either gone after this season or in two.

Lou Williams, Avery Bradley, Montrezl Harrell, CJ Williams, Jamil Wilson, and Tryone Wallace are all players whose contracts are up after this season.

Deandre Jordan, Austin Rivers, Milos Teodosic, Wesley Johnson, Boban Marjanovic, Patrick Beverley, and Tobias Harris are players whose contracts expire in the 2018-2019 season.

Part of what should factor in this equation is whether we make it into the playoffs. If we do make it in, some of the older guys definitely should be keep in order for this team to be competitive, but if the Clippers don't make it, then we should look to jettison the older vets. Overall, the players we should definitely keep should be:

Harrell, Wallace, and Harris (these are the same you have as well Sam)

Then we should look to continue the process of stockpiling picks and young guys for those that aren't part of the plan (if we don't get a playoff spot that is).

Yeah, I like CJ Williams, Thornwell, Dekker and Evans, but there is little there than can't be easily replaced. Their cheap contracts give them value however. Though they are making the minimum, you can actually put them in the game and they can help, unlike minimum guys we've had before like Wilcox, Reggie or the end of the line guys like Pierce and Jameson who had nothing left in the tank.

You can see in just a couple of games back how good Gallinari is. Too bad the guy can't stay on the floor.


pageC4
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SamMays wrote:
Yeah, I like CJ Williams, Thornwell, Dekker and Evans, but there is little there than can't be easily replaced. Their cheap contracts give them value however. Though they are making the minimum, you can actually put them in the game and they can help, unlike minimum guys we've had before like Wilcox, Reggie or the end of the line guys like Pierce and Jameson who had nothing left in the tank.

You can see in just a couple of games back how good Gallinari is. Too bad the guy can't stay on the floor.

As for Thornwell and Evans. I would favor keeping them and seeing what they can develop into. I don't want us to commit the same mistake that we did with Bullock, which is trading a player away whom may turn into a good role player. Gallinari is very good indeed, and with him and Harris on the floor together, we may be difficult to stop. West gave Gallinari a longer contract relative to other, so I think he may be kept.


SamMays
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pageC4 wrote:
As for Thornwell and Evans. I would favor keeping them and seeing what they can develop into. I don't want us to commit the same mistake that we did with Bullock, which is trading a player away whom may turn into a good role player. Gallinari is very good indeed, and with him and Harris on the floor together, we may be difficult to stop. West gave Gallinari a longer contract relative to other, so I think he may be kept.

Would agree. Evans, Beverly, Austin, Bradley and Lou. Five small guards. Two will be back. Austin and Bradley are too much the same. One needs to go. Beverly and Lou are older. I would bet Evans and Austin will be back. If we bring three of them back, Evans, for future development, and cheap contract price, would almost certainly be one of them.

Would love to come back with a backcourt next year of Milos, Wallace, Austin (or Bradley), Evans and a new high level player brought in through free agency or the DJ/Lou trades. Could be a rookie if we can package our picks to move into the top five.


clipper*joe
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pageC4 wrote:
As for Thornwell and Evans. I would favor keeping them and seeing what they can develop into. I don't want us to commit the same mistake that we did with Bullock, which is trading a player away whom may turn into a good role player. Gallinari is very good indeed, and with him and Harris on the floor together, we may be difficult to stop. West gave Gallinari a longer contract relative to other, so I think he may be kept.

I'm inclined to let Evans go. I am a little burnt out on 6' or under PG's.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7078
votes: 50

Why does anybody want Dekker? He hasn't taken a shot in several games. Time will tell on Evans. He's FASTand sometimes that compensates for length. Wes is becoming a keeper. If his shots fall, definitely but will he be priced out of the market. He may be a defensive monster come March.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5408
votes: 89

Lots of talk about Bradley going to OKC.


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