Recalibration of Expectations

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LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
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Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

I just wanted to post and reach out to a Clipper fan forum... It has come to my attention that we may be overestimating our team. I DO think we need to recalibrate our expectation or else we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. It has nothing to do with US (I guess some of it has to do with us...)

But everyone is playing for 2nd place.

I should also mention that we are NOT one of those teams...

We are only going to go as far as Blake will take us. If CP3 managed to carry us to mostly 1st round or WC semi finals, and he is a stubborn and fiesty PITBULL, then Blake Griffin's outlook does not look too promising.

Basketball wise, Blake might gel better with the flow of "new offense"... but when push comes to shove, he is no PITBULL. He will not be able to carry this team as far as people seem to think.

And it may not entirely be his fault... the climate of the western conference is cranked really high.

I am just tired of hearing the same argument... It is Doc's fault, it is Austin River's fault, it is DJ's fault. It gets tiring.

We started off hot, which was great, but I feel now we are showing our true colors. Actually, some of these games should have been wins. Our schedule started off kind of easy, and we are UNDER performing if you ask me.

If I was to make a guess... as soon as the schedule gets hectic, we start losing, and BG or DJ gets hurt. I am quick to say BG, because he always gets hurt. DJ is more robust, but the team will find an "out". Just my guess.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

Pit bulls are nice. I have one and she's the sweetest most gentle spoiled princess you'v ever met. They are mean only if you treat them that way.

BUT

Sometimes pit bulls bite and won't let go for no apparent reason I guess it's their job.. Imagine that you're playing hoops and a pit bull inserts his detention firmly in your left buttock, clamps down and won't let go. Got the picture? How easy is it to play ball when you're dragging around a pit bull who is constantly chewing on your as*.? We are so much less edgy now. As far as a pit bull, no try Brahma bull but he needs a point guard.BG is playing at MVP level. It's a small sample size to quote some of the bean crunchers but he seem as reliable a scorer as CP. WIth BG as he is now, I wouldn't want CP. How about Kyrie? Lillard?

This is not sour grapes. Maybe it's realizing how good my as* feels without the pitbull attached to it. Why didn't we see this BG before? Maybe a pitbullectomy was what he needed.


ClipperPostman
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5471
votes: 45

I don't understand your post my friend. On one hand you feel we are underperforming, but we shouldn't blame 2 of the culprits behind the issues.

Some of us fans don't just look at the wins and loss columns. We watch the game and see what is going on. Doc's coaching and rotations suck. He is not a good coach for today's nba.

You look over at a team like Boston. Gordon Hayward goes down and they are still winning quality games.

But if you watch the games Brad Stevens has implemented an awesome offense that is predicated on ball movement. That is a team full of role players and Kyrie at this point.

Doc tried to sell us on lack of ball movement on cp3. When in reality lack of ball movement is based on Docs inability to create an offensive scheme that incorporates ball movement, while subbing in players who fit the scheme best.

Docs rotations are also clearly horrible. Miami was a prime example. Like he previous games he didn't play the bench much, until they made a comeback.

Austin is getting the most minutes some games and he is one of the worst players in the rotation. Doc is still using 3 guard lineups to keep Austin on the floor no matter how bad of a game he is playing.

We have a group of very good role players that should get a lot more minutes that get DNP while Doc plays starters close to 40 minutes in losses.

Same old Doc. It's time to move on from him and his son. Immediately


cisco805
Clipper Starter
Posts: 655
votes: 4

ClipperPostman wrote:
I don't understand your post my friend. On one hand you feel we are underperforming, but we shouldn't blame 2 of the culprits behind the issues.

Some of us fans don't just look at the wins and loss columns. We watch the game and see what is going on. Doc's coaching and rotations suck. He is not a good coach for today's nba.

You look over at a team like Boston. Gordon Hayward goes down and they are still winning quality games.

But if you watch the games Brad Stevens has implemented an awesome offense that is predicated on ball movement. That is a team full of role players and Kyrie at this point.

Doc tried to sell us on lack of ball movement on cp3. When in reality lack of ball movement is based on Docs inability to create an offensive scheme that incorporates ball movement, while subbing in players who fit the scheme best.

Docs rotations are also clearly horrible. Miami was a prime example. Like he previous games he didn't play the bench much, until they made a comeback.

Austin is getting the most minutes some games and he is one of the worst players in the rotation. Doc is still using 3 guard lineups to keep Austin on the floor no matter how bad of a game he is playing.

We have a group of very good role players that should get a lot more minutes that get DNP while Doc plays starters close to 40 minutes in losses.

Same old Doc. It's time to move on from him and his son. Immediately

100% agree with you.

I have seen enough of Docs coaching. I had high hopes for Austin this year but he is non effective this year time both to go.


clipper*joe
CNS MVP Champion
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Location: los angeles
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Yeah, BG is no pitbull but is still clinging as my favorite clipper. If he doesn't live up to expectations, trade his arse after this season. With that said, aren't you blaming BG in this thinly veiled thread about how BG will be at fault if we fall short? I've been here all off-season and I didn't see anyone say this team would be as good. I for one said that this team isn't going anywhere (contenders) but we now have young pieces and room to build on.

My hope is we keep losing so Ballmer grows a pair of gonads to fire Doc Rivers for undermining this team the minute he brought in his son. The Rivers family has become the sh*t stain in the Clippers' underwear. And say what you will but that was the reason why CP3 left. LAC12, you were mad when CP3 was traded so why are your hopes invested in Doc? He isn't any better than Vinny Del Negro and he had more time to prove it. Doc even said one of the reasons why CP3 left was because he got tired of listening to Doc. What that tells me is that CP3 was ignoring Doc on the court at times and doing what he wanted. What do I think? There is truth in that but Doc wanted people to take that as the excuse when most know he left because Doc wouldn't trade his son for Melo.

We can still win our championship though. If Ballmer fires Doc and or/ trade Austin this season, we won the whole enchilada as far as I'm concerned. Go Clippers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Keatonsays
Clipper All-Star
Age: 28
Posts: 1565

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votes: 28

We will definitely need more creative coaching if we're going to have any success with this group.

Please don't discount how much the offense suffers when you're missing "the best passer in the world" after losing one of the greatest point guards of all time. Our offense was desperate for time to adjust with Milos in the lineup, so it should be expected that we're struggling to find a flow with him out.

Austin hasn't shown improvement in anything other than his 3point shooting so far. He hasn't improved his finishing at the rim or his ft shooting making his drives to the basket all the more inefficient. He's been racking up steals playing alongside Beverley so that is great, but very unfortunate he hasn't become a more dynamic scorer or playmaker.

With Milos out, Blake and Gallo are the best passers on the team, and point-Blake can get real tired real fast. I'd like to think Jawun Evans could help with the ball movement, but he's very likely to commit a bunch of turnovers playing outside of garbage time. Still, it would be more fun to watch turnovers from a 20yo rookie than watch Austin make the same mistakes over and over.

I question whether even Pop himself could get this particular group of guys to move the ball well (without Milos). We have a group of guys that play tough but aren't particularly high IQ players. We're almost literally built to sustain an injury to anyone except for Milos.


cobra
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1422
votes: 7

You don't need to watch and read the post if you don't like what the people want to say, this is forum and everybody is free to write their opinion.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5813
votes: 90

As an Austin supporter (I still think he's an above average guard int the NBA) it is becoming increasingly clear we have one Rivers too many. I don't care whether Doc goes, or his son gets traded, but having them both here in untenable. Clearly, his son is getting more minutes than he deserves, which has a ripple effect and messes with the rotations throughout the rest of the team as a result.

I am not sure how anyone can play a three guard unit, when we only have three acceptable guards on the team? I like Thornwell, and I think he has a future in the league, but he's not a significant asset just yet.

Again, I like Austin, so I would not argue if Doc were to be fired. It's clear that Ballmer has been stripping away his power which could be paving the way for a Doc free Clippers team. Bottom line, we are not a challenger for a title, so now would not be a bad time to make such a move--provided we don't simply hire a retread.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5813
votes: 90

And the loss of Milos cannot be overstated. He was our only true point guard and was responsible for much of the early ball movement. Austin, Beverly and Williams are all solid NBA players, but none is a playmaker for others.

Before the season I said this team would win between 41 and 55 games, provided reasonable health. And the difference between the 41 and 55 would depend entirely on how quickly Milos adapted to the NBA and if his skill sets would be enough to make him a complimentary player, or if he could rise to the level of star. It looked to me like being a star, or near star, was within his reach, so I could have seen us win 50 or so. Hopefully, he's back sooner than expected.


Keatonsays
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1565

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votes: 28

clipper*joe wrote:

We can still win our championship though. If Ballmer fires Doc and or/ trade Austin this season, we won the whole enchilada as far as I'm concerned. Go Clippers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Talk about a recalibration of expectations LOL


tense2
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 14209
votes: 32

SamMays wrote:
As an Austin supporter (I still think he's an above average guard int the NBA) it is becoming increasingly clear we have one Rivers too many. I don't care whether Doc goes, or his son gets traded, but having them both here in untenable. Clearly, his son is getting more minutes than he deserves, which has a ripple effect and messes with the rotations throughout the rest of the team as a result.

I am not sure how anyone can play a three guard unit, when we only have three acceptable guards on the team? I like Thornwell, and I think he has a future in the league, but he's not a significant asset just yet.

Again, I like Austin, so I would not argue if Doc were to be fired. It's clear that Ballmer has been stripping away his power which could be paving the way for a Doc free Clippers team. Bottom line, we are not a challenger for a title, so now would not be a bad time to make such a move--provided we don't simply hire a retread.

Sam, Austin is NOT an above average guard and every advanced stat model shows that. He's a below average player. Period.

You thinking that he is doesn't make it so.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5813
votes: 90

Last year...

44% field goal. 37% from 3pt. Both are above average. He's a significantly better than average defender.

You don't need advanced stat models to see the obvious. You need advanced stat models to see what it is you want to see. Nobody is saying he's a great player. Ideally, he's a first guard off the bench on most teams, as he was here until Milos went down. Perhaps on some, he'd be a fourth guard and on some he'd start. And I do not accept your "period" as the defining moment and end of this discussion, PERIOD.

You thinking that it does, doesn't make it so.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

toohipcliptoslip wrote:
Pit bulls are nice. I have one and she's the sweetest most gentle spoiled princess you'v ever met. They are mean only if you treat them that way.

BUT

Sometimes pit bulls bite and won't let go for no apparent reason I guess it's their job.. Imagine that you're playing hoops and a pit bull inserts his detention firmly in your left buttock, clamps down and won't let go. Got the picture? How easy is it to play ball when you're dragging around a pit bull who is constantly chewing on your as*.? We are so much less edgy now. As far as a pit bull, no try Brahma bull but he needs a point guard.BG is playing at MVP level. It's a small sample size to quote some of the bean crunchers but he seem as reliable a scorer as CP. WIth BG as he is now, I wouldn't want CP. How about Kyrie? Lillard?

This is not sour grapes. Maybe it's realizing how good my as* feels without the pitbull attached to it. Why didn't we see this BG before? Maybe a pitbullectomy was what he needed.

Ok my mistake... bad analogy... all I wanted people to read:

"CP3 is a better leader than BG32, therefore a CP3 led team would go further than a BG32 led team holding other variables constant."

The West and NBA is more or less the same. Our team has changed a bit and the leadership role has fallen on BG32. I do not think he's got the "stuff" to lead THIS team into any kind of success we've had the last few years. And YES, I mean we may not even make the playoffs.

Whereas with CP3 getting into the playoffs was not even a question.

This really is not ABOUT CP3, this is about the here and now... I only bring CP3 into question because that is what type of success we have been used to. And we FOR THE MOST PART seem think that losing that type of talent won't hinder our chances at beating some teams. Maybe I am wrong and we all took the bait and bit because we started off really hot - in which case we need to recalibrate our expectations for the NBA as a whole.

Push comes to shove BG32 will fold. He has shown glimpses of greatness, but he will need to develop that during this season. He is our alpha. There is no one to hide behind now. A true leader, a true alpha is always a true alpha... if BG32 was that, CP3 would've taken the same role he has NOW alongside Harden (or before he got hurt.)

I am not saying he cannot grow into that role... I am saying that time is running out (he's old, he is no longer "learning the ropes"), and with the patient outlook we better hope he can do better than keep us afloat or else our Staples Center tenants will be a lot closer to us that we like.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

cobra wrote:
You don't need to watch and read the post if you don't like what the people want to say, this is forum and everybody is free to write their opinion.

I did not say anything about limiting peoples' freedom to write anything on this forum... I just wanted to point something out, maybe give people something to think about.


clipper*joe
CNS MVP Champion
Posts: 19918
Location: los angeles
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votes: 150

Keatonsays wrote:
Talk about a recalibration of expectations LOL

My expectations haven't changed. I've been on the fire Doc and get rid of Austin before it was cool. I also said we can win our championship (in terms of importance) if Ballmer fires Doc and trades Austin. Not an actual championship, but equivalent to..."as far as I'm concerned".

Not sure what you're talking about.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

SamMays wrote:
As an Austin supporter (I still think he's an above average guard int the NBA) it is becoming increasingly clear we have one Rivers too many. I don't care whether Doc goes, or his son gets traded, but having them both here in untenable. Clearly, his son is getting more minutes than he deserves, which has a ripple effect and messes with the rotations throughout the rest of the team as a result.

I am not sure how anyone can play a three guard unit, when we only have three acceptable guards on the team? I like Thornwell, and I think he has a future in the league, but he's not a significant asset just yet.

Again, I like Austin, so I would not argue if Doc were to be fired. It's clear that Ballmer has been stripping away his power which could be paving the way for a Doc free Clippers team. Bottom line, we are not a challenger for a title, so now would not be a bad time to make such a move--provided we don't simply hire a retread.

This is kind of what I am trying to say. I will try to add to this thought...

There are only so many excuses we can come up with until we look at our leader and ask "what is up?"

We are bickering and laying blame on an Austin Rivers and Doc Rivers and at time DJ... and we don't point out the fact that BG is turning the ball over and slowing down the offense a whole lot. Or he should've taken a better finishing shot vs Memphis (granted he was guarded by length.)

I have hated watching the Lakers attain glory behind Kobe, but now I look back with fondness and admiration. The guy was a SUPERSTAR. An ALPHA... a pitbull, if you will (just kidding, kinda.) BG needs to get into that zone.

He does not have the ball handling skills to play point-forward, no matter how many of us want to have a LeBron-esque situation. Fact: BG is not LeBron, BG cannot handle the ball well enough to be a primary ball handler, he may be better than most bigs.... he is still not the best option to run an offense/fast break.

AND

BG needs to be taking Kobe amount of shots, and Kobe amount of responsibility... Specifically the game at Memphis, people want to blame Rivers. THIS WAS BG's GAME TO WIN. He missed his final attempt. Point blank.

Austin rivers is not the leader of this team, coaches in the NBA (for the most part) do not have the same power on their group... this is a SUPERSTAR driven league.

So, our superstar needs to show up. He needs to shoulder a whole lot more blame. And getting great numbers is not ALL he can do, he needs to go out get better numbers AND WIN GAMES.


Onetime
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 42
Location: Section 218
votes: 3

My expectation is for the Clippers to win a championship. How and with whom is above my pay grade, The fact is that they are not a Championship caliber team today, and I don't like the lets wait and see story or how it is early and things take time BS. We have been fed this story for many years. its time to make it happen. I like Austin and kike all the players. But I like winning more. Sure it would be great to see i happen with Austin, Blake and DJ only because they have stuck it out here with us, But getting it done is on them. Either they do or we find someone who can. So much looks and feels like the years of Clippers past. bah humbug!


tense2
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 14209
votes: 32

SamMays wrote:
Last year...

44% field goal. 37% from 3pt. Both are above average. He's a significantly better than average defender.

You don't need advanced stat models to see the obvious. You need advanced stat models to see what it is you want to see. Nobody is saying he's a great player. Ideally, he's a first guard off the bench on most teams, as he was here until Milos went down. Perhaps on some, he'd be a fourth guard and on some he'd start. And I do not accept your "period" as the defining moment and end of this discussion, PERIOD.

You thinking that it does, doesn't make it so.

Below average rebounder, FT shooter, EFG%, TS%. Overall below average player for his position.

Nobody should be saying he's an above average guy either. The advanced models show you what he actually produces. Your eyes see what you want to see, not the other way around. So you can continue to see what want, but the reality is he's below average and is rewarded with waaay too many minutes for his talents.

Outside of some Clipper fans and fan sites, most agree Austin isn't the player you think he is.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31
tense2 wrote:
Below average rebounder, FT shooter, EFG%, TS%. Overall below average player for his position. Nobody should be saying he's an above average guy either. The advanced models show you what he actually produces. Your eyes see what you want to see, not the other way around. So you can continue to see what want, but the reality is he's below average and is rewarded with waaay too many minutes for his talents. Outside of some Clipper fans and fan sites, most agree Austin isn't the player you think he is.
Every time with these "advanced models"... You are in fact correct, your eyes....


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

clipper*joe wrote:
Doc even said one of the reasons why CP3 left was because he got tired of listening to Doc. What that tells me is that CP3 was ignoring Doc on the court at times and doing what he wanted. What do I think? There is truth in that but Doc wanted people to take that as the excuse when most know he left because Doc wouldn't trade his son for Melo.

!

I haven't been a BG supporter but as far as living up to expectations, so far he is a beast. If he didn't have to do everything on the court for the team we would be more aware of it.

Doc admitted publicly that he often doesn't call plays, he let CP run things. AS far as losing to the point that Ballmer dumps Doc sorry but I kinda agree.


Clippers(AUS)
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 200
votes: 6

Doc is the reason we are losing these games. Not being able to get the players to bring effort and then he just leaves them on the floor. Not using his bench and he has even said him self that we have no offense as he hasn't had time to run through any plays. That's why there is no ball movement out there as no one knows what's really going on. Everyone is just playing off natural ability and that's why there is so much standing around and then ISO ball with 3 seconds left on the clock


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

Onetime, I'm sure you didn't mean it and it was a typo but please remove the Anti Semitic slur from your post.

Thanks


Agent0
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 11401
votes: 95

toohipcliptoslip wrote:
Pit bulls are nice. I have one and she's the sweetest most gentle spoiled princess you'v ever met. They are mean only if you treat them that way.

BUT

Sometimes pit bulls bite and won't let go for no apparent reason I guess it's their job.. Imagine that you're playing hoops and a pit bull inserts his detention firmly in your left buttock, clamps down and won't let go. Got the picture? How easy is it to play ball when you're dragging around a pit bull who is constantly chewing on your as*.? We are so much less edgy now. As far as a pit bull, no try Brahma bull but he needs a point guard.BG is playing at MVP level. It's a small sample size to quote some of the bean crunchers but he seem as reliable a scorer as CP. WIth BG as he is now, I wouldn't want CP. How about Kyrie? Lillard?

This is not sour grapes. Maybe it's realizing how good my as* feels without the pitbull attached to it. Why didn't we see this BG before? Maybe a pitbullectomy was what he needed.

We did though, 13-14, they started slow, but he was averaging 27/10 his last 10 games with Paul before Paul went down with injury, then in total his last 40 or so games with Paul playing he averaged like 26/10/4 that year. People seemed to think that only happened in the games Paul was out but that was incorrect. The 14-15 playoffs, he did very well alongside Paul. Remember after 13-14 he said he wanted to pace himself in the regular season, so that's why we didn't see the 13-14 Blake again, and he could do so because we also had Paul. Right now he can't pace himself because there's no other guy to fall back on to help carry the team

Also Blake slowly developed the 3PT shot to what it is this season, and that is helping to expand his game and also increase his efficiency.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

Not sure where all these comments are going... I am mostly to blame...

I think people are overrating this team, and Blake Griffin. He is "beasting", but we cannot view and judge him as we always have... "beasting" it will no longer cut it for the UNDISPUTED LEADER of this team.

He will have to carry the responsibility of the success of this team on his shoulders just as Kobe did with the Lakers, LeBron is doing with the Cavs, and most superstars do on their respective team.

If he was such a leader, we would not be so focused on Austin Rivers. It is precisely this reason - Blake cannot carry us as far as CP3 - that we are fussing over other excuses.

Winners do not make excuses, they win despite the flaws.

I am not crazy and I do not think we are going to win any Championship... hence the reason for this thread... BUT my main point is that Blake is why we lost to Heat. Blake should also not have allowed us to lose to Memphis, etc, etc

Not because he did not "beast" it... He did. But he did not do ENOUGH. A great leader makes no excuses and gets it done.

A loss to the Warriors, understandable. But others? I am on the fence. We should not be on a two game losing streak (both at home).


Anxioustobebest
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1223
votes: 1

And the church said, "Amen."


BluesBro
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 146
votes: 3

I still expect this team to make the playoffs, but I will be okay with a 6-8 seed. I know this is a broken record on this forum, but one of the Rivers needs to go. I honestly believe neither will happen, especially since Doc won't get fired because he's a "high caliber coach with a great track record and he won a championship blah blah blah." I don't see Austin getting traded because in reality, no other team needs him or would be willing to give up more for him. Also another broken record, Doc needs to cool it on the starters minutes. Doc is so afraid that playing our young guns will cause us to lose, but the only way they will develop is if they play. Sometimes losing leads to the biggest gains.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

I will be happy with 6-8 seed too. As far as a ring, does anybody remember Ricky Davis? When BG and DJ leave we have nothing to go forward with while other teams have rebuilt.

All reasons are excuses but not all excuses are reasons. You can be a great carpenter but without proper tools you can't build a good house, A chef can make a great soup but if a sous chef pours motor oil in it because he's blind and can't read the label, no matter how good the chef is the product will be bad - Excuses and Reasons. I failed the test because the dog ate my "home work"., an excuse not a reason.. I was hung over, a reason but not a valid excuse. Kobe couldn't win with Piatkowski, Cherokee Parks, the Candyyman etc.

No matter how hard a "winner" polishes, he can't make sh*t shine.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

toohipcliptoslip wrote:
I will be happy with 6-8 seed too. As far as a ring, does anybody remember Ricky Davis? When BG and DJ leave we have nothing to go forward with while other teams have rebuilt.

All reasons are excuses but not all excuses are reasons. You can be a great carpenter but without proper tools you can't build a good house, A chef can make a great soup but if a sous chef pours motor oil in it because he's blind and can't read the label, no matter how good the chef is the product will be bad - Excuses and Reasons. I failed the test because the dog ate my "home work"., an excuse not a reason.. I was hung over, a reason but not a valid excuse. Kobe couldn't win with Piatkowski, Cherokee Parks, the Candyyman etc.

No matter how hard a "winner" polishes, he can't make sh*t shine.

So you are basically saying what I have been saying ALL along... BG is great, he is just not THAT great. He is not Kobe good. He is not Lebron good. He cannot LEAD us to anything meaningful.

He's got and he's had GREAT tools... but he wasn't able to lead with another great player (he took a backseat to someone stronger.)

All I am trying to say is that if we could not win with CP3, we're not going to win (or let's say: "go as far") without CP3, unless Blake Griffin EVOLVES into something GREATER THAN WHAT HE IS NOW.

I am talking super elite, MVP beyond any doubt, closing out games and PULLING out Ws for our team. Unless we get that, he is just going to be an All Star on a mediocre team that barely manages to make the playoffs - IF THAT.

If people are cool with that, I am too... Just stop pointing the finger at a bench player or the coach or free throws or referees or blah blah blahh. And stop acting like we are going to win every game.

Hence, recalibrate or maybe the better word is REASSESS.


Agent0
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 11401
votes: 95

We're still early in the season to be making any conclusions. If with decent health, this isn't a 47 win range team, then we can start talking about Blake not living up to expectations or whatever. Or even if let's say they are under 500 after like 30 games.

Just like it happens every year, people jump to conclusions way too early, despite knowing that every single season there are hot starts and slow starts and that schedules aren't balanced early. We can't help it, so how about we still give it some time. We haven't done as well as we should in these first 9 games considering they were mostly at home, but let's see what the do on the road.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

LAC_12 wrote:
So you are basically saying what I have been saying ALL along... BG is great, he is just not THAT great. He is not Kobe good. He is not Lebron good. He cannot LEAD us to anything meaningful.

He's got and he's had GREAT tools... but he wasn't able to lead with another great player (he took a backseat to someone stronger.)

All I am trying to say is that if we could not win with CP3, we're not going to win (or let's say: "go as far") without CP3, unless Blake Griffin EVOLVES into something GREATER THAN WHAT HE IS NOW.

I am talking super elite, MVP beyond any doubt, closing out games and PULLING out Ws for our team. Unless we get that, he is just going to be an All Star on a mediocre team that barely manages to make the playoffs - IF THAT.

If people are cool with that, I am too... Just stop pointing the finger at a bench player or the coach or free throws or referees or blah blah blahh. And stop acting like we are going to win every game.

Hence, recalibrate or maybe the better word is REASSESS.

I can go with that.


BluesBro
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 146
votes: 3

Also, as much as I don't like seeing Milos and Gallo go down with injuries, I like it because it forces Doc to expand the rotation. I'm looking forward to see Dekker and Harrell get more minutes. Let's hope they make the most of it and make a long-term impression on Doc.


ClipperPostman
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5471
votes: 45

@Lac you keep talking as if Kobe was some great leader that won championships in spite of how bad his teammates were.

When Shaq left they sucked and Kobe threatened to leave in free agency if they didn't go get some better players. In comes all star Pau Gasol.

While your revisionist history makes for a great story around the campfire, it really isn't true nor practical.

Austin rivers isn't good and is playing a lot of minutes. Blakes will ain't going to change that. Blakes will doesn't make Austin make 2 Fts that probably seal the game.

Blakes leadership ability doesn't make our second option Gallo shoot over 32%.

Blakes "beast level", doesn't make doc give good players off the bench opportunities to play more than 5 minutes.

So yea...


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5813
votes: 90

Is Blake Nowitzki great? Is he Rip Hamilton great?

Blake is enough of a player to lead us all the way (if Golden State weren't in the league) provided he is surrounded by enough talent. Our backcourt is way below average by NBA standards. With Milos out, I'm sure there are still less talented backcourts than ours, but they are few and far between. Add to that, it's a very small group. With Milos we might be in the middle of the pack in terms of backcourt talent. But he's out for a while.


cleepers
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 11002

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votes: 153

The fact that Blake is not a generational superstar, and the fact that there is rampant nepotism in the Rivers family that is effecting team performance detrimentally, are not mutually exclusive.

Both can be true.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

BTW Kpbe said he was going to be a Clip and the contract was written but LAL gave in. Oscar before Kareem and Ernie Banks, There were only a few superstars with sh*t teams. Kobe wouldn't have won anything with his last squad. Look at the talent on the Showtime Lakers. Would the Bulls have beaten Malone/Stockton without Pippen and some other good players? No. Would he have been consider GOAT? Maybe not. I was not a big fan but this is the first time BG has been without Paul except that stretch where he kicked buns without Paul. He is a more mature player now with more skills.It is not inconceivable that he is a generational star but wait a while and give him some good players. No matter how good he is he won't be a generational superstar without a stacked team.How many great teams DID NOT have two or more HOF except the Billups Pistons and all the starers were all star caliber.

How about Prrzyngis (sp) BG, Leonard Jrue Holiday (only non monster player) and Kyrie. This is what you have to have to be a generational superstar.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

BluesBro wrote:
Also, as much as I don't like seeing Milos and Gallo go down with injuries, I like it because it forces Doc to expand the rotation. I'm looking forward to see Dekker and Harrell get more minutes. Let's hope they make the most of it and make a long-term impression on Doc.

Good point, it does force his hand.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31
The only thing revisionist here is you misrepresenting my words... and fabricating a whole bunch. I talk about Kobe because he had to grow and CO-LEAD the team with an established alpha... Shaq. And in fact, when Shaq left he had to bring the dog out of Pau - there were many instances Kobe was calling out Pau for being too soft (or implying it.) LeBron had to do it as an outsider in Miami when he first got there with Wade. Becoming vocal, a stronger presence on the team, and a true leader is something even Blake Griffin has said he has learned he needs to do this season (multiple times in interviews.) The kid does not have it in him to get in a teammates face and say the hard truth. He does not have it in him to demand more from his teammates and help his teammates to be better. He does not have it in him to shoulder responsibility on a more personal level and start taking matters into his own hands. He does not look to obliterate his mismatches. He does not have it in him to punish the opponent. He doesn't have it in him to talk trash and engage himself mentally (while disengage opponents.) He cannot create his own flow. He can get numbers, yes. But he cannot will himself or his team to a W. And again the focus on Austin... this is hilarious and I will say it a bunch of times, but no use if people cannot hear. I'll bring another example up... We had so many years with Aminu (or even now with Wes) we are not focusing on their lack luster performance. We are not assigning blame, or over exaggerating their performance. We know they are average pieces, so we expect....


Keatonsays
Clipper All-Star
Age: 28
Posts: 1565

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votes: 28

cleepers wrote:
The fact that Blake is not a generational superstar, and the fact that there is rampant nepotism in the Rivers family that is effecting team performance detrimentally, are not mutually exclusive.

Both can be true.

I think Blake Griffin is a generational talent, but he spent so many years in the mentality of being Robin to Chris Paul's Batman, his killer instinct hasn't had a legitimate chance to develop. That's all on him, and it always will be, but now is his time to let it loose. I think he's done a decent job so far, but he needs to push it to another level. With ball-movement being so poor, it's best to have the ball in Blake's hands as much as possible, especially considering he's the 2nd best passer on the team. He should either be scoring or dishing, but so far it seems like he's trying to let everyone else find their groove and he works around that, when I think it should be the other way around (Blake should dominate the ball, and let others work around his production.)


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

toohipcliptoslip wrote:
BTW Kpbe said he was going to be a Clip and the contract was written but LAL gave in. Oscar before Kareem and Ernie Banks, There were only a few superstars with sh*t teams. Kobe wouldn't have won anything with his last squad. Look at the talent on the Showtime Lakers. Would the Bulls have beaten Malone/Stockton without Pippen and some other good players? No. Would he have been consider GOAT? Maybe not. I was not a big fan but this is the first time BG has been without Paul except that stretch where he kicked buns without Paul. He is a more mature player now with more skills.It is not inconceivable that he is a generational star but wait a while and give him some good players. No matter how good he is he won't be a generational superstar without a stacked team.How many great teams DID NOT have two or more HOF except the Billups Pistons and all the starers were all star caliber.

How about Prrzyngis (sp) BG, Leonard Jrue Holiday (only non monster player) and Kyrie. This is what you have to have to be a generational superstar.

Yes, trust me I know the history. But all of that is irrelevant. Even when the Lakers were garbage, Kobe was still a leader (a bad one, but still an alpha). He shot his way through a lot of Ls and some Ws. Thankfully Austin Rivers is no Smush Parker or Luke Walton... the dude, no matter how much you guys hate him is capable of holding his own at his position (and does a rather good job defensively.) Our team is more talented than those bad Lakers teams, and I am not saying Kobe is the exact model Blake needs to copy - which is why I have been using MANY examples. But some people want to focus on details and miss the forest for the trees. There is another level for BG to get to... can we agree on that?

To me DJ is more of a leader than BG. He is local and in everyones face. He is directing people on D, and plays to his strengths on O (limited, but he's got himself ot blame for that.) I do not see BG growing into something more than a stat padding star on an average team. He needs to rasie his level, in doing so he will raise the team.

Also I refuse to talk anything about Bulls/MJ related... there is no could, should, would. There is only real, hard facts and the GOAT.

But if we were to draw a comparison, the Bulls were still competitive when MJ left. Scottie did well without MJ (or as well as one would've expected for a fair amount of time.) The jury is still out on Blake, so I cannot judge just yet - but if I were to guess we have a similar BG (in attitude). So now Doc will draw up a play at the end of games for him to take the last shot.... a true change would be one where he grows as a leader.


PagingDrDrain
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 158
votes: 4
Lowering expectations should be a no brainer for this Clipper team. I think it's healthy for the franchise to take a step back and realize what they are up against. They Clippers put themselves on the pedestal the moment CP3 got to Los Angeles. Clippers have been fooling their fans and themselves talking about Championship aspirations. After we beat the Warriors before peaking, the Clippers acted like they were the next great team but never leveled up their game. I think that lowering that expectation will allow the players to operate a little more freely. The great teams talk about enjoying the game and getting back to having fun. I think we need to lower bar to maybe get back to that fun level. When Clippers have enthusiasm, they end up playing with more passion and heart. Thank goodness for Patrick Beverly or else maybe we wouldn't mentally be in any of these games. With that said, I think with a lower bar and more grit, we may have a year where teams overlook the Clippers and slip up to allow us into the Western Conference finals. A good example of that is the Clippers Rockets meltdown. We didn't take that team seriously and ever since, the team and particularly James Harden has transitioned himself into an NBA Elite/ MVP candidate. Sometimes it needs a little luck, but that experience clearly changed the outlook of that team and their lone superstar (and he transformed, even though on the actual comeback he was on the bench). Now they have CP3, Mike D'Antoni, and are real competitors for a championship. Hell, they've beaten the Warriors in the last 3years. I can't say that about our Clippers. About Blake Griffin, the....


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

Keatonsays wrote:
I think Blake Griffin is a generational talent, but he spent so many years in the mentality of being Robin to Chris Paul's Batman, his killer instinct hasn't had a legitimate chance to develop. That's all on him, and it always will be, but now is his time to let it loose. I think he's done a decent job so far, but he needs to push it to another level. With ball-movement being so poor, it's best to have the ball in Blake's hands as much as possible, especially considering he's the 2nd best passer on the team. He should either be scoring or dishing, but so far it seems like he's trying to let everyone else find their groove and he works around that, when I think it should be the other way around (Blake should dominate the ball, and let others work around his production.)

Almost exactly what I am trying to say. Agree. Yes. This. Maybe not dribble the ball so much, but pass it off and ASK... nay... DEMAND for it back.

We need ball movement and defensive movement, cause as we all know Blake struggles with some defensive pressure and physicality.

But essentially, yes!

Blake should be touching the ball every 2nd-3rd-max 4th pass. He should get multiple looks a possession. And as always, HE SHOULD EXPOSE MISMATCHES instead of passing out of them. I cringe every time I see him pass out of a guard or small forward match up. I do not hear ANYONE say anything about those. This team is HIS.

It is time he acts like it.

Maybe people will be drawn to his success - and we can attract some talent. No one seems to want to play with Blake. Also time we see him punish people inside again. With his extended jumper, defenders cannot fall back on him.

It time he makes this team and all the players on it (their flaws, excuses, etc) HIS.

Generational or not... he has room to grow.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

PagingDrDrain wrote:
Thank goodness for Patrick Beverly or else maybe we wouldn't mentally be in any of these games. With that said, I think with a lower bar and more grit, we may have a year where teams overlook the Clippers and slip up to allow us into the 2nd round. A good example of that is the Clippers Rockets meltdown. We didn't take that team seriously and ever since, the team and particularly James Harden has transitioned himself into an NBA Elite/ MVP candidate. Sometimes it needs a little luck, but that experience clearly changed the outlook of that team and their lone superstar (and he transformed, even though on the actual comeback he was on the bench). Now they have CP3, Mike D'Antoni, and are real competitors for a championship. Hell, they've beaten the Warriors in the last 3years. I can't say that about our Clippers.

There is no excuse for him not to do well and carry this team to as high as the Western Conference finals. When Kevin Durant left OKC, Westbrook didn't shrivel up and die, he busted his butt all season long and attracted two more All-Star players to fuel his team back into contending for top honors. Sure, it's a big transition for the ball club but if Blake can't prove his value, nobody is going to want to come to the Clippers and be in the shadow of BUM who plays no heart and whiff arrogance at every step of the way. The dude has been strutting through games like he's already won a championship. Who would want to play with a phony like that anyway? If Blake doesn't shape up and become the leader he clearly envisions himself as, then we'll be soon losing good players other teams.

I had to make one edit Smile


cisco805
Clipper Starter
Posts: 655
votes: 4

I'm just here checking to see if Doc has been fired and Austin traded??? 🤔🤔🤔🤔


Agent0
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 11401
votes: 95

SamMays wrote:
Is Blake Nowitzki great? Is he Rip Hamilton great?

Blake is enough of a player to lead us all the way (if Golden State weren't in the league) provided he is surrounded by enough talent. Our backcourt is way below average by NBA standards. With Milos out, I'm sure there are still less talented backcourts than ours, but they are few and far between. Add to that, it's a very small group. With Milos we might be in the middle of the pack in terms of backcourt talent. But he's out for a while.

Blake is not Dirk great, at least not so far. Dirk is at a pretty high level all time. I don't get the Rip Hamilton one, he's way better than Rip, but Rip never lead any team as the superstar or clear best player. He was by most accounts the 3rd best player ion the championship Pistons after Billups and Ben, and him and Sheed were at a similar level. Blake could certainly do great if the Clippers added Two players better than him and another similar level player, but what player couldn't do well in that Blake isn't likely to get a 4 All-Star elite defensive team built around him here, and 95% of star players have not gotten that either.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

LAC_12 wrote:
Almost exactly what I am trying to say. Agree. Yes. This. Maybe not dribble the ball so much, but pass it off and ASK... nay... DEMAND for it back.

We need ball movement and defensive movement, cause as we all know Blake struggles with some defensive pressure and physicality.

But essentially, yes!

Blake should be touching the ball every 2nd-3rd-max 4th pass. He should get multiple looks a possession. And as always, HE SHOULD EXPOSE MISMATCHES instead of passing out of them. I cringe every time I see him pass out of a guard or small forward match up. I do not hear ANYONE say anything about those. This team is HIS.

It is time he acts like it.

Maybe people will be drawn to his success - and we can attract some talent. No one seems to want to play with Blake. Also time we see him punish people inside again. With his extended jumper, defenders cannot fall back on him.

It time he makes this team and all the players on it (their flaws, excuses, etc) HIS.

Generational or not... he has room to grow.

How do you know that nobody wants to play with him?

Aren't you disagreeing with yourself?

Nobody is disagreeing with your assessment of his faults and everybody says he has room to grow..

Don't get me started on GOAT. There is no player who doesn't have faults and nobody is above criticism including Jordan. There is no such thing as GOAT. It depends on your criteria.. I've touted WIlt as GOAT for years but it's to introduce our younger posters to hm. Many EXPERTS have said WIlt, Russell or Oscar are GOAT.. I would throw in Magic if he didn't get sick. One (erroneous) criterion for greatness is the number of rings. No matter how good BG is he won't win a ring so he will be second tier. In a pick up game when Wilt was in his 40's he actually shut down Magic and Norm Nixon. ZERO POINTS. Could MJ do that? No but Wilt was lazy and not a great leader. MJ didn't have WIlt's physical skills but he was a leader. Different criteria. GOAT was a term the Jordaneires used to sell shoes but subject for another day.. BG - no WCF - no greatness no matter what his leadership and talent are.


clipperboy24
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5637
votes: 41

LAC12 Sorry but you are being revisionist. It took a bunch of talent for the lakers to win once Shaq left and... for Phil Jackson to come back. The key part you are forgetting to mention. Kobe was out of control under Rudy T, but Phil comes back and they trade for Pau and they are contenders again.

As for Austin rivers he is the guard version of Jared Dudley. Extremely overrated and someone who people get an unhealthy affinity for thinking he provides more value than he does. Austin is a poor shooter, mediocre (not a good) defender and is decent at slashing to the basket. Don't know how it can be seen any other way but hey to each his own.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3937
Location: NY/CA
votes: 31

clipperboy24 wrote:
LAC12 Sorry but you are being revisionist. It took a bunch of talent for the lakers to win once Shaq left and... for Phil Jackson to come back. The key part you are forgetting to mention. Kobe was out of control under Rudy T, but Phil comes back and they trade for Pau and they are contenders again.

As for Austin rivers he is the guard version of Jared Dudley. Extremely overrated and someone who people get an unhealthy affinity for thinking he provides more value than he does. Austin is a poor shooter, mediocre (not a good) defender and is decent at slashing to the basket. Don't know how it can be seen any other way but hey to each his own.

How am I being revisionist? You are either misinterpreting my words, or you do not understand what revisionist means.

I was watching basketball, I remember things clearly, and I am not trying to portray anything other than what happened... for all I care, I was younger, more immature, and I was LOVING the PAIN and DYSFUNCTION of the cross town rivals.

My only connection to Kobe is his leadership type... Blake needs to get an ounce closer to Kobe. Again... I do not think Kobe was a great leader or effective leader, but Blake can learn to emulate him a bit because he is FAR on the SOFTER side as a leader goes.

I do not intend on going into the mechanics of Laker basketball history, I am only concentrating on the player and his leadership style. Blake can get an inch closer to that style/type of leadership or attitude.

IF HE EMULATES IT TOO MUCH and becomes a Kobe 2.0, that will be bad too. ALL I AM SAYING, is that he can get a LITTLE bit closer to that style of leadership.... Something he has acknowledged himself multiple times THIS SEASON.

I am not saying anything that the dude hasn't stated himself... I am just saying that he needs to be a better leader for some of the hopeful optimists on this site, and for the rivers haters gang to relax, oh and to make the playoffs.


toohipcliptoslip
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 7451
votes: 52

What you are saying makes sense but the way you say it makes it seem that you are saying the opposite.

You don't need to scream to motivate. Study Robert E Lee (and tear down the f*cking statue) He never raised his voice or became angry but his men would follow him into the jaws of hell. Then there's Patton who was the opposite. His men would do the same.. Leadership is LEADING people to success. How you do it depends on your personality. A leader leads by example and by bringing success not by being Kobe. You inspire confidence and trust but you do it by being yourself. If he is not a "tough guy", he doesn't know how to do it and he will screw the pooch.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5813
votes: 90

Agent0 wrote:
Blake is not Dirk great, at least not so far. Dirk is at a pretty high level all time. I don't get the Rip Hamilton one, he's way better than Rip, but Rip never lead any team as the superstar or clear best player. He was by most accounts the 3rd best player ion the championship Pistons after Billups and Ben, and him and Sheed were at a similar level. Blake could certainly do great if the Clippers added Two players better than him and another similar level player, but what player couldn't do well in that Blake isn't likely to get a 4 All-Star elite defensive team built around him here, and 95% of star players have not gotten that either.

My point, which was not particularly well articulated, is simple. There is this idea that it takes multiple superstars to win a title. That is true if you have multiple superstars. For teams that don't, they must find another way. Dallas did it with Dirk and some good pieces around him. Yes, I would agree that Dirk was a better player than Blake is now, but not by a great deal. Blake is good enough to build around.

The Detroit model is another team that won a title without a superstar. We can argue about who their best player was. Billups was a very good point guard. Hamilton led the team in scoring and was a go-to player in the clutch. Wallace rebounded and defended. None of those guys, however, was as good as Blake is now. We can win it all with Blake if we put the right pieces around him. Now, the Pistons weren't a great team in 03-04 when they won it. They put it together at the right time. We can do the same. It will take breaks to go our way, especially given how talented Golden State is.

We are obviously not there yet. Our backcourt simply isn't strong enough, but at least we have the pieces to build and get better.


Agent0
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 11401
votes: 95

That Pistons team was better than you are giving them credit for. Remember they improved drastically after adding Rasheed, they weren't a contender before Sheed was added. With the Sheed addition, they had 4 All-Star level players, they were an elite defense, they had pretty good depth, and they had a stubborn, but excellent and HOF coach.

Of course, that was now 14 years ago, they fell into a very fortunate situation with being able to have all those salaries (just like the Warriors and the cap spike). There's a reason we haven't had other teams able to replicate that type of team, it's just not very easy to do and with us already having a max player in Griffin, Gallo making $20 million, DJ as a FA, we would need to have some extremely fortunate events to have the plan of putting together a 4 All-Star team.

It takes a very good to great team to win, usually a team that can play both ends. Multiple superstars is the easiest way to achieve that level of team. There are other ways, but history certainly supports the multiple star model. It doesn't mean other ways can't work, it's just that with a salary cap, there's a reason we don't see many teams with alternate methods.


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