How CP3 Gambled And Lost (P. 2)

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Agent0
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I'm liking the slight drama. Here's another one : http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/enterpriseRockets/the-st ory-how-houston-rockets-landed-chris-paul
    In early September, Rivers is sitting courtside at the TD Garden in Boston, where he returns annually to attend a charity event, and he says the disconnect between Paul and some of his Clippers teammates stemmed from accountability. "I thought when Chris rubbed guys the worst was when he messed up," Rivers says, "because when you mess up, you gotta take it. I didn't really think he did. But overall, he's a damn smart point guard, and you never have a problem coaching that." Some 1,850 miles away and three weeks later, Paul has....


pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
Doc Rivers says 'there were a lot of reasons' why Chris Paul wanted off the Clippers

"I think he was tired of hearing my voice," Rivers said. "I think Chris is a guy who is very opinionated, wants to be coached 'kind of,' if you know what I'm saying, but wants a partnership as well. And it's tough from a coaching perspective. You gotta have a partnership but at times, you've gotta make the call. I thought that bothered him."

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/18/165 ... dre-jordan

Chris Paul's true colors being revealed


clipper*joe
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After last night's locker room brouhaha, Chris Paul will probably never be cheered at Staples Center again

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-chr ... story.html


david
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clipper*joe wrote:
After last night's locker room brouhaha, Chris Paul will probably never be cheered at Staples Center again

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-chr ... story.html

Wow that was a great read- thanks Joe.


toohipcliptoslip
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I have always said that CP wasn't that good. Yes he has numbers but as the article says he has numbers and the attitude of Kobe without the ability to finish. He melts down. It matters not if she says "my bad" or not he screwed the pooch. No matter how good you are on paper and what your Advanced stats and metrics are, if your behavior results in the team having poorer production, you aren't that good. If he were a leader he would find the key to BG's attitude and use it to make BG better, not push his buttons. Doesn't the fact that his behavior was so bad that our center wanted to leave make him a worse player despite metrics? If he is an instigator doesn't that make him a worse player?


LAC_12
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Great read, thanks for the share. Doesn't change the fact that I was on team CP3 when he was here, as I would've been had he stayed. For all the positive points the article makes, CP3 said something VERY true: "if you're not competing with the Warriors, then what are we doing?"

He came, he saw Griffin for what he truly was, and he knew he needed more help. Also Golden State kept retooling, and winning. For LAC to have competed we needed a better president of basketball operations, we needed to make trades, we needed to make moves to stay/become relevant (Warriors had been roasting us on the regular.)

CP was right.

CP gambled and ended up on the #2 team in the west.

CP is the closest thing to being able to compete with the Warriors.

Did he gamble and lose? Likely (time will tell), the Warriors are incredibly well built. But the Spurs, Rockets and Cavs were his only bets.


LAC_12
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
I have always said that CP wasn't that good. Yes he has numbers but as the article says he has numbers and the attitude of Kobe without the ability to finish. He melts down. It matters not if she says "my bad" or not he screwed the pooch. No matter how good you are on paper and what your Advanced stats and metrics are, if your behavior results in the team having poorer production, you aren't that good. If he were a leader he would find the key to BG's attitude and use it to make BG better, not push his buttons. Doesn't the fact that his behavior was so bad that our center wanted to leave make him a worse player despite metrics? If he is an instigator doesn't that make him a worse player?

No. To answer your question. The dude is a superstar. I know being Clipper fans we are not used to seeing super stars... But in the history of my fandom we have had ONE superstar... his name? Chris Paul. Just like the many superstars that could not defeat the Bulls in the 90s, CP3 was not going to get anything done against the Warriors without more help. Help we couldn't get him.

I have been against BG since probably his 3rd or 4th year... CP is mad at him for the same reasons I am.


Clemenza
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CP3 is right about wanting to compete with the best but at the same time the Warriors leveled up to god tier status when they got Durant. Their exceptional role players like Livingston and Iggy took less money and the team develops and finds really good 2nd rounders= the perfect storm to combat any other team loading up on talent(Cavs) or any other superteam formation. We're just now getting into the G League/2 Way player gaunlet.. The Warriors started off with Draymond Green years ago. CP3 is a hell of a player but really we needed more of a scoring PG on the team. Yes Blake is a B level star but he's in a better position with a guy like Lou Williams on the court than CP3. No Lou is not better than CP3 individually but Lou is a better fit with a guy like Blake because he's going to take the scoring load off of him. For the amount of time CP3 has the ball in his hands and the fact that Doc built terrible aging rosters we needed 25 points plus from him per game. Paul's 'structured true point guard' style of play did nothing for us in the post season with Ma Moute, Pierce, JJ, Crawford, Wes, on the wings. And that is on Doc and Paul. A Lot of big games I wanted Paul to simply say f*ck the stat-line and just shoot up- go for 30/40 points if he's really a "superstar". I know that's not his game but he's has to adjust when needed. Scoring 30 is not needed from him all the time but when it calls for it he needed to do what was best for the team imo. When we had the scenario of Blake's looking suspect in the 4th again, JJ....


toohipcliptoslip
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My point all along is what is a super star? Yes he has numbers but is that all there is? Do you sacrifice numbers for leadership and leading by example? If you're always yelling and other players don't want to play with you (not saying CP is like that) and it decreases their performance, doesn't that decrease your super stardom in reality.? If Cassell could get more out of the players than CP, who was the greater star? Subject for debate.

Perfect example, the GOAT debate. Russell said that Wilt was one of the laziest men he ever met, yes lazy. He lived in New York. He'd drive to Philly with 2 hours sleep hung over and score 50 pts. If Wilt had chosen he could have destroyed MJ yet he still is considered arguably the GOAT. Did that behavior motivate his team? Did that decrease his greatness? MJ and his team left it all on the floor.


LAC_12
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Clemenza wrote:
CP3 is right about wanting to compete with the best but at the same time the Warriors leveled up to god tier status when they got Durant. Warriors started off with Draymond Green years ago.

CP3 is a hell of a player but really we needed more of a scoring PG on the team. Yes Blake is a B level star but he's in a better position with a guy like Lou Williams on the court than CP3. No Lou is not better than CP3 individually but Lou is a better fit with a guy like Blake because he's going to take the scoring load off of him. For the amount of time CP3 has the ball in his hands and the fact that Doc built terrible aging rosters we needed 25 points plus from him per game. Paul's 'structured true point guard' style of play did nothing for us in the post season with Ma Moute, Pierce, JJ, Crawford, Wes, on the wings. And that is on Doc and Paul. A Lot of big games I wanted Paul to simply say f*ck the stat-line and just shoot up- go for 30/40 points if he's really a "superstar". I know that's not his game but he's has to adjust when needed. Scoring 30 is not needed from him all the time but when it calls for it he needed to do what was best for the team imo.

When we had the scenario of Blake's looking suspect in the 4th again, JJ can't buy a post season bucket as usual, Jamal is chucking and missing, and DJ is missing free throws- but to top it off CP3 is still playing the 'traditional pg role' and not looking to score until we're down 20?

I 100% agree with you... But my argument is: we should have bet on CP3. If a B level star was not cutting it, we should've traded Blake's butt a long time ago. We should've gotten rid of Doc as a coach/exec if he was not working out. We should've beefed up the roster a while ago.

We had our chance to become a winning organization, we gambled on Blake... and we lost.


Agent0
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Gamble probably wasn't a loss since the Rockets are doing well, but the gamble not being a loss doesn't mean the Rockets have a real chance of taking down the Warriors, sorry Rockets fans.


LAC_12
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Agent0 wrote:
Gamble probably wasn't a loss since the Rockets are doing well, but the gamble not being a loss doesn't mean the Rockets have a real chance of taking down the Warriors, sorry Rockets fans.

They are worlds closer than we are.


Agent0
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LAC_12 wrote:
They are worlds closer than we are.
Sure, no argument there, like I said, it's not like he made a bad decision with that as his goal, but still doesn't mean the Rockets championship chances are good at all


LAC_12
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Agent0 wrote:
Sure, no argument there, like I said, it's not like he made a bad decision with that as his goal, but still doesn't mean the Rockets championship chances are good at all

They are a contender. They have a chance. That's more than most teams can say... he improved his team and chances of winning.

We went from in the conversation... to blow up mode.

We gave in, and essentially folded to the Warriors. I don't think there will ever be a team I hate more than the Warriors, and we just conceded everything to them. That is the ultimate insult to me, personally.


clipper*joe
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I guess some of us hijacked a thread for a bit talking about CP3 and the Rockets. Fair is fair so I'm bumping this thread up. Smile


pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
I guess some of us hijacked a thread for a bit talking about CP3 and the Rockets. Fair is fair so I'm bumping this thread up. Smile
It's all good. I went back on topic to the poster's original topic, but thanks for bringing this up anyway.


clipper*joe
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pageC4 wrote:
It's all good. I went back on topic to the poster's original topic, but thanks for bringing this up anyway.

I included myself in my comment. That way, anyone can comment about cp3 or the playoff series. It's easy to get side tracked when your team is no longer in the race. lol


Agent0
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I'll agree with my previous statement, Paul won his gamble of course. Rockets are the best team he's been on, they got to the WCF, they are closer to a championship than any formulation we could have put together would be, the goal was to at the least have a better chance, that part is complete. Now to compete with GS though, so far it's only one game, so I'll hold off on overreacting and we'll see if they can compete with GS, but they at least got there, Clippers couldn't.

Still, even if they can compete, I also stand by my previous conclusion that they aren't going to beat the Warriors. They could have beat the no Durant Warriors, actually I would favor them, attacking Curry over and over would tie him out and no Durant on the floor and someone like Barnes instead changes everything, but these Warriors are different. Durant was going off and you can't send a second defender or play off any of the other guys because if you start scrambling against the Warriors, goodnight!

Iguodala and Green might not be shooters, but they are handlers and playmakers, so if you scramble, they will make plays. If you have to guard Durant in space and can really only help so much, well let's just remember what he did to LeBron in the finals, then when he's also making tough shots, lol

Rockets are another superstar or at least very good All-Star player away from just matching the Warriors talent wise. Rockets beating the Warriors was always going to either require serious underperforming from GS (or significant injury) or some serious overperforming from Houston or some combination of both. Of course GS fans wanting to make us feel like their team isn't a cheat have been trying to convince us all season that they team is really not the good, "Oh, look at our regular season record", as if we couldn't see the they were both coasting and had injuries. When you can coast to almost 60 wins, that's says something.


pageC4
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clipper*joe wrote:
I included myself in my comment. That way, anyone can comment about cp3 or the playoff series. It's easy to get side tracked when your team is no longer in the race. lol
yeah, all true points. I think with the expectations placed on the rockets, along with many members on CNS showing loyalty to CP, he will be thoroughly discussed and scrutinzed. I just hope this series has all OT games, so no matter who wins will be injured and at a disadvantage for the eastern conference team.


LAC_12
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Agent0 wrote:
I'll agree with my previous statement, Paul won his gamble of course. Rockets are the best team he's been on, they got to the WCF, they are closer to a championship than any formulation we could have put together would be, the goal was to at the least have a better chance, that part is complete. Now to compete with GS though, so far it's only one game, so I'll hold off on overreacting and we'll see if they can compete with GS, but they at least got there, Clippers couldn't.

Rockets are another superstar or at least very good All-Star player away from just matching the Warriors talent wise. Rockets beating the Warriors was always going to either require serious underperforming from GS (or significant injury) or some serious overperforming from Houston or some combination of both. Of course GS fans wanting to make us feel like they team isn't a cheat have been getting to convince us all season that they ran is really not the good, "Oh, look at our regular season record", as if we couldn't see the they were both coasting and had injuries. When you can coast to almost 60 wins, that's says something.

I agree 100% with your post. Rockets got far, but are no match for the Warriors as currently constructed. Doesn't mean that CP3 gambled and lost, he went into the WCF as a #1 seed. The only situation that could've been better was to make a spineless move like KD and opt not to compete, but to join the Warriors.


toohipcliptoslip
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It may be a sweep but everybody is better off with him at HOU. Nobody can beat GSW, That's why we should give them the ring now and let them go fishing then play for second. He should end his career with better guys than DJ and BG. Healthy Celtics is what we should be


clipper*joe
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LAC_12 wrote:
I agree 100% with your post. Rockets got far, but are no match for the Warriors as currently constructed. Doesn't mean that CP3 gambled and lost, he went into the WCF as a #1 seed. The only situation that could've been better was to make a spineless move like KD and opt not to compete, but to join the Warriors.

I don't know how you call KD spineless when he's the Dub's best player. When you're clearly the best player and you're eating up the rockets at will, spineless is not what I would call him. KD left for the same reason Cp3 left. And when you have GS players recruiting him, I'd say he was convinced they wanted him there. I'd bet dollars to donuts if GS recruited CP, he would have jumped at the chance too. Didn't Harden recruit CP3? I guess two people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions...


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clipper*joe wrote:
I don't know how you call KD spineless when he's the Dub's best player. When you're clearly the best player and you're eating up the rockets at will, spineless is not what I would call him. KD left for the same reason Cp3 left. And when you have GS players recruiting him, I'd say he was convinced they wanted him there. I'd bet dollars to donuts if GS recruited CP, he would have jumped at the chance too. Didn't Harden recruit CP3? I guess two people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions...
There were a lot of similarities between KD's move to GSW and CP3's move to Houston. KD's Thunder had the Warriors on the ropes with a 3-1 lead only to watch it go away. Similarly, CP3's Clippers held a 3-1 lead over Houston and gave it away. Both KD and CP3 joined what are considered Super Teams, and even though so far KD's super team is proving to be the better of the two, Houston's cast of ancillary players were believed by many sports commentators to be enough to take the crown away from GSW. Both CP3 and KD bashed their former teams and placed the blame on their former teammates and front office while wiping their hands clean of any of the blame. I think both those players have revealed themselves to not be the "classy, nice guys" they were believed to be.


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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
It may be a sweep but everybody is better off with him at HOU. Nobody can beat GSW, That's why we should give them the ring now and let them go fishing then play for second. He should end his career with better guys than DJ and BG. Healthy Celtics is what we should be
I like this last part "healthy Celtics," is what we should be. We need to stay far away from the free agent and trade market with respect to super stars. I would rather that we emulate what Boston did and draft a bunch of young, fundamental guys that can play defense as well. None of their draft picks made much noise, but man they are proving to be amazing. After we have assembled a core, we can think about adding big name vets. However, for now, a core of Harrell, Harris, Wallace, and with two solid picks in the draft can be the starting point for something very, very similar. We just have to make sure we stay away from guys like Trae Young in the draft and instead choose players that have long reach and a commitment to defense.


clipper*joe
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pageC4 wrote:
There were a lot of similarities between KD's move to GSW and CP3's move to Houston. KD's Thunder had the Warriors on the ropes with a 3-1 lead only to watch it go away. Similarly, CP3's Clippers held a 3-1 lead over Houston and gave it away. Both KD and CP3 joined what are considered Super Teams, and even though so far KD's super team is proving to be the better of the two, Houston's cast of ancillary players were believed by many sports commentators to be enough to take the crown away from GSW. Both CP3 and KD bashed their former teams and placed the blame on their former teammates and front office while wiping their hands clean of any of the blame. I think both those players have revealed themselves to not be the "classy, nice guys" they were believed to be.

Repped!


toohipcliptoslip
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pageC4 wrote:
. I think both those players have revealed themselves to not be the "classy, nice guys" they were believed to be.

I said the same thing about CP (albeit a bit more vigorously) and was roundly castrigated (Castrated and castigated)

. We need a completely new identity which means getting rid of DJ ASAP as our first priority.. He is now a mediocre center, not as good as my man Steven Adams. DJ's attitude is not the best. I actually would prefer Thornwell. What rookie has guarded LBJ and not gotten embarrassed? From what I gather he was a decent scorer in college (?) and Doc may have told him to keep his shooting to a minimum. He has the toughness to replace Austin.There is also the Sophomore Slump. Maybe Wallace will have it. We don't know. If Ty could play PG --Holy Sh*t! Thornwell will be cheaper.

Trezz is my favorite player but he should be a PF, otherwise his talents will be wasted as a bench center. As a starting center he will get destroyed. If he can develop a mid range shot over the summer, he's a monster. As well he has the body to be an incredible defender. He's a RFA and it's gonna co$t us. He is actually a gamble, a player who needs a lot of development. , still a lot of rough edges. He has the body to be Elton Brand on steroids.

Doc is part of the culture that has reliably blown it and should have at least some of the responsibility. He is not a winner. and it will be the same old same old. Doc won't have his "Big Three". I could get a ring with PP, KG and RA. Given the choice, none of us really WANT Doc here. It's not that he's good, we are afraid of getting a worse one.


ClipperPostman
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pageC4 wrote:
There were a lot of similarities between KD's move to GSW and CP3's move to Houston. KD's Thunder had the Warriors on the ropes with a 3-1 lead only to watch it go away. Similarly, CP3's Clippers held a 3-1 lead over Houston and gave it away. Both KD and CP3 joined what are considered Super Teams, and even though so far KD's super team is proving to be the better of the two, Houston's cast of ancillary players were believed by many sports commentators to be enough to take the crown away from GSW. Both CP3 and KD bashed their former teams and placed the blame on their former teammates and front office while wiping their hands clean of any of the blame. I think both those players have revealed themselves to not be the "classy, nice guys" they were believed to be.

Sorry bro but this post is BS. Who the hell considered Houston a “super team”? THey just came out of a second round exit in a pathetic game 6 vs the spurs. Clippers loss in the first round prior last season.

The team that the clipppers loss to after being up 3-1 is a completely different team then the one cp3 joined.

KD went to a team that just had 2 consecutive finals appearances and just broken the record for regular season wins the year before he got there.

No one considered Houston a super team even after cp3 joined. In fact most analyst were saying it wouldn’t work with both players being ball dominant. They ended up eating crow later in the season.

I generally like your post but you did a hell of a reach comparing what KD did to what Cp3 did.


LAC_12
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ClipperPostman wrote:
Sorry bro but this post is BS. Who the hell considered Houston a “super team”? THey just came out of a second round exit in a pathetic game 6 vs the spurs. Clippers loss in the first round prior last season.

The team that the clipppers loss to after being up 3-1 is a completely different team then the one cp3 joined.

KD went to a team that just had 2 consecutive finals appearances and just broken the record for regular season wins the year before he got there.

No one considered Houston a super team even after cp3 joined. In fact most analyst were saying it wouldn’t work with both players being ball dominant. They ended up eating crow later in the season.

I generally like your post but you did a hell of a reach comparing what KD did to what Cp3 did.

I could not have said it better myself.


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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
I said the same thing about CP (albeit a bit more vigorously) and was roundly castrigated (Castrated and castigated)

. We need a completely new identity which means getting rid of DJ ASAP as our first priority.. He is now a mediocre center, not as good as my man Steven Adams. DJ's attitude is not the best. I actually would prefer Thornwell. What rookie has guarded LBJ and not gotten embarrassed? From what I gather he was a decent scorer in college (?) and Doc may have told him to keep his shooting to a minimum. He has the toughness to replace Austin.There is also the Sophomore Slump. Maybe Wallace will have it. We don't know. If Ty could play PG --Holy Sh*t! Thornwell will be cheaper.

Trezz is my favorite player but he should be a PF, otherwise his talents will be wasted as a bench center. As a starting center he will get destroyed. If he can develop a mid range shot over the summer, he's a monster. As well he has the body to be an incredible defender. He's a RFA and it's gonna co$t us. He is actually a gamble, a player who needs a lot of development. , still a lot of rough edges. He has the body to be Elton Brand on steroids.

Doc is part of the culture that has reliably blown it and should have at least some of the responsibility. He is not a winner. and it will be the same old same old. Doc won't have his "Big Three". I could get a ring with PP, KG and RA. Given the choice, none of us really WANT Doc here. It's not that he's good, we are afraid of getting a worse one.

All true points toohip. I am a member of various Clippers forums, but none of them have the culture that exists here. There are a few unofficial principles, and if you violate them you will hear from people:

  1. Never criticize Chris Paul-he is without fault because statistics say he is great.

  2. DJ is an elite center-because statistics say he is great .

  3. Blake Griffin was an utter disappointment, and if he were traded CP3 would have won a chip or two.

  4. Austin is good player, lay off the kid.

  5. Doc is a good coach, lay off the guy.

In all the forums I visit Clipper nation is about 90-95% against all of these claims. This is just one of the realities of the membership here. As for your points, yes. DJ does not have a future here. We have essentially blown up the roster. The first domino to fall was Chris Paul. Following him was Redick, Crawford, and finally Blake. With all those players gone, two draft picks from last year (Thornwell and Evans), two G-league players in Wallace and Williams, young assets from the trades (Harrell, and Harris), and two upcoming first round picks, it makes no sense to keep a veteran like DJ on the squad. We can use Harrell and Harris as part of the future, and build on that, but our focus should now be flipping Bradley, Jordan, Lou Williams, and other vets for picks to add to this new youthful club.


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clipper*joe wrote:
Repped!

Thanks for the rep.


LAC_12
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pageC4 wrote:

In all the forums I visit Clipper nation is about 90-95% against all of these claims. This is just one of the realities of the membership here.

I am at fault of overexaggerating some points some times, I try to correct it... But I feel sometimes I am reacting to over exaggerations myself. I just wonder why so many of the people that love to hate on Paul or DJ or Paul and DJ are mum on Blake. Fact of the matter is, the team didn't work so the fault is spread to all of them. I am a firm believer that most of the blame was Blake's, and after the smoke cleared I am more or less proven right. So I was baffled to witness CP3 go first. IMO CP3+DJ would've worked out better than Blake+DJ moving past the "Big 3" era. But hey, I get it CP3 was difficult to work with (because he wanted to win more urgently than anyone in the organization - including management and ownership.)

But I can appreciate a no nonsense approach. When he got here, he said I am here to win. After settling in, and surveying the NBA, he knew he didn't have enough to win (whether it was over-estimating his own skills and how it would mesh with Blake+DJ, the supporting cast, underestimating the rest of the league.) When things didn't budge, he took off. And he DID own up to his mistakes countless number of times. But why stay on a team that does not share the same ambition as you?

More importantly why are we so quiet or ingoring all the evidence that came out against BG and still defending him by constantly talking about CP and DJ?


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pageC4 wrote:
All true points toohip. I am a member of various Clippers forums, but none of them have the culture that exists here. There are a few unofficial principles, and if you violate them you will hear from people:

  1. Never criticize Chris Paul-he is without fault because statistics say he is great.

  2. DJ is an elite center-because statistics say he is great .

  3. Blake Griffin was an utter disappointment, and if he were traded CP3 would have won a chip or two.

  4. Austin is good player, lay off the kid.

  5. Doc is a good coach, lay off the guy.

My previous post covers #1

#2 is a rather contentious point because we use arbitrary words like "elite", "all star", or even "good". Why don't we just say in today's market he is not a $22-24 mil center. Heck even I can agree with that. But I'd love to remind everyone that he is also not a slouch and there is a reason that the Cavs wanted him for their titel run this year. He may not be a $22+ mil worth center, but he's close.

#3 overexaggerated point. Just goes to what I previously said about a lot of people still defending our "wonder boy"; When in reality he was a disappointment. An individulas level of blame or disappointment evidently varies, but his lacking communication skills, maturity in the locker room, and chemistyry with the group hurt the saquad. Not to mention his health. Not to mention how he shrank from the big moments. Not to mention his akward set of skills, body size, and lacking fundamentals. So some would say utter dissappointment, or some level of disappointment.

#4 Daddy plays him more than he deserves, but he is better than the flack he gets


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LAC_12 wrote:
I am at fault of overexaggerating some points some times, I try to correct it... But I feel sometimes I am reacting to over exaggerations myself. I just wonder why so many of the people that love to hate on Paul or DJ or Paul and DJ are mum on Blake. Fact of the matter is, the team didn't work so the fault is spread to all of them. I am a firm believer that most of the blame was Blake's, and after the smoke cleared I am more or less proven right. So I was baffled to witness CP3 go first. IMO CP3+DJ would've worked out better than Blake+DJ moving past the "Big 3" era. But hey, I get it CP3 was difficult to work with (because he wanted to win more urgently than anyone in the organization - including management and ownership.)

But I can appreciate a no nonsense approach. When he got here, he said I am here to win. After settling in, and surveying the NBA, he knew he didn't have enough to win (whether it was over-estimating his own skills and how it would mesh with Blake+DJ, the supporting cast, underestimating the rest of the league.) When things didn't budge, he took off. And he DID own up to his mistakes countless number of times. But why stay on a team that does not share the same ambition as you?

More importantly why are we so quiet or ingoring all the evidence that came out against BG and still defending him by constantly talking about CP and DJ?

Rep

The title should be How BG Gambled and lost?

He came out the worst out of the big 3 caused he thought he was so untouchable that he didn't even try to put a no trade clause.


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
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votes: 31

#5 (I was cut off by the word limit) the guy is a good coach... no matter what anyone says. He may not be the RIGHT coach, but you cannot deny what the league holds to be true.

So I do not care about other boards - fact of the matter is when I was looking for a board, this was the only option I found. Some of the newer boards may have a different set of members, with differing viewpoints. I am happy with this board and the OG board members and the conversations that take place here. Sometimes we agree... sometimes we don't. But we are always pushing each other to dissect our take on the sport, and the club.

I am thankful of that, and love that there is an older crowd of people that have been here for years, and the influx of newer people... its a good mix (you and me included.)

So let's watch tonight's game, cheering on different teams for the (somewhat) same reasons... but to get back to the point, we should know that ultimately, CP3s gamble paid off. I am saddened by that fact, because it means he is no longer a member of the Clippers. I choose not to be that bitter ex-boyfriend, at least not when it comes to sports. Even though I am not watching this series more for CP3 to win, as opposed to watching - and hoping - for KD to lose. I do not care about the success of HOU, but I do care for GSW's


jarca
CNS MVP X3
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pageC4 wrote:

  1. Blake Griffin was an utter disappointment, and if he were traded CP3 would have won a chip or two.

    club.

He was a disappointment though. Not a failure but a disappointment. He's a good player, made lots of money, and fun against lesser opponents but there's no way in hell that you would have envisioned Blake after his first year to go on a downward spiral after his first season due to not improving his game, mental weakness, and some to injuryies.

He was supposed to be the next Karl Malone but instead he ended up as adepressed Vin Baker.


pageC4
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jarca wrote:
He was a disappointment though. Not a failure but a disappointment. He's a good player, made lots of money, and fun against lesser opponents but there's no way in hell that you would have envisioned Blake after his first year to go on a downward spiral after his first season due to not improving his game, mental weakness, and some to injuryies.

He was supposed to be the next Karl Malone but instead he ended up as a depressed Vin Baker.

Hyperbole. Blake ended up being Amare Stoudemire 2.0, which isn't bad but it isn't great. From my own personal opinion, I was disappointed with how he ended up as a player. Blake always added some kind of offensive weapon to his game. During his first year, he was known as a dunker, and he took the criticism to heart. the following year he added a mid-range shot and became more versatile. He even improved his free throw shooting and three point shot, but all of that was only on one side of the ball. Blake paid no attention to his defense, so I think an accurate comparison was Amare Stoudemire. Even before he was traded, I was one of the few who thought we should have gotten rid of everyone on that lob city team. I don't have any favorites among that group because to be honest I think Blake, Chris, JJ, and Deandre have so many glaring problems, and their skills are very one dimensional. Ballmer even said this when he mentioned why he traded away Blake, " the thing you can see at the high level with the numbers when I started�"one guy got all the assists, one guy got all the points and one guy got all the rebounds. It's not all quite that way, but I think in the modern NBA, we were seeing it more and more�"there's a greater distribution of responsibility."

Blake basically focused on being the mid-range threat, Deandre focused on the rebounds, JJ was really our only true shooting threat, Chris focused on taking the ball up court and only looking to pass,and Jamal focused on isolation play on the bench...that's a recipe for disaster, but we neglected this so long because we focused on empty stats. I was absolutely ecstatic when both Blake and Chris were gone. We are better without them, and even on the cultural side we no longer have Blake her to punch trainers or Chris here to flop and complain to the refs. Between their flawed, one skills play and their pouting and complaining they both made the team into a hated group.


jarca
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pageC4 wrote:
Hyperbole. Blake ended up being Amare Stoudemire 2.0, .

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I don't think Blake was better than any version of Amare in Phoenix outside of Amare's rookie year. Amare was a beast offensively and his outside range was reliable. Maybe a poor man version of Amare?

I do agree that Blake added a lot to his game such as his free throw, mid range, and 3 pointers. But may ask if all those addition to his game made him a better player overall? Rookie Blake averaged 22 points and 12 rebounds. I don't think Blake came close averaging double digit rebounds again and he only averaged above his rookie in points once. While you may argue that he improved his game aesthetically, I'll say that it didn't make him a better player since his effort on the court decreased, allergy to rebounds, and overall he rarely played defense because he didn't want to get hurt.


Agent0
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Posts: 11707
votes: 98

Comparing Paul and Durant's situation is a huge reach and doesn't even make sense. Their end goals were the same, to win a championship, but that goes for any star player that joins a good team, but there's a reason we don't lump Aldridge with Durant.

Durant went to a team that already won, could have won the previous year if not for suspension, could win a championship without him moving forward, and just went to two straight finals. He basically knew he had a finals guarantee and essentially a guaranteed championship. It was the easy way. The Warriors also beat his team the previous season, two months before he joined them.

CP went to a team that was a second round exit and a first round exit the year before. They weren't even guaranteed a WCF, let alone a finals. Even with Paul at the beginning of the season we didn't think of them as a WCF guarantee because of SA. The Clippers also lost to the Rockets two seasons before Paul joined, and they weren't even the same team he lost to. Paul joined a one star team to be the 2nd star. Durant joined a 3 star team.

It's a huge reach to call those situations similar in any meaningful sense, I would think that is quite obvious.


jarca
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 12032

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Agent0 wrote:
Comparing Paul and Durant's situation is a huge reach and doesn't even make sense. Their end goals were the same, to win a championship, but that goes for any star player that joins a good team, but there's a reason we don't lump Aldridge with Durant.

Durant went to a team that already won, could have won the previous year if not for suspension, could win a championship without him moving forward, and just went to two straight finals. He basically knew he had a finals guarantee and essentially a guaranteed championship. It was the easy way. The Warriors also beat his team the previous season, two months before he joined them.

CP went to a team that was a second round exit and a first round exit the year before. They weren't even guaranteed a WCF, let alone a finals. Even with Paul at the beginning of the season we didn't think of them as a WCF guarantee because of SA. The Clippers also lost to the Rockets two seasons before Paul joined, and they weren't even the same team he lost to. Paul joined a one star team to be the 2nd star. Durant joined a 3 star team.

It's a huge reach to call those situations similar in any meaningful sense, I would think that is quite obvious.

Yup a bunch of people here are rewriting history as if Houston this year was guaranteed a WCF spot

Even PageC4 say many commentators believed Houston could take down GSW. Before the season begin I doubt it. If you could provide me with some links that have all these people predicting CP to Houston before the season would beat GSW please provide

Heck Clipjoe made this thread to make fun of CP because he himself thought CP made a huge mistake because the Rockets would be a second round exit.


Agent0
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Amare was always a better scorer and shooter from mid-range, he also had better length which made him more useful at C despite his actual defensive IQ not being very good. Blake was a much superior passer though, that was always one of Amare's weaknesses. He could be your lead scorer, but he couldn't be your first option because he didn't have any true playmaker in him. One of the issues we had with Blake is that we overrated his potential because of his rookie season. Whenever a player has a rookie season like that we tend to project them to now become a 30 ppg scorer, look at a guy like KAT for example. Blake's length issues didn't go away and that was always going to limit him. The problem is that after rookie Blake people were saying Charles Barkley and Karl Malone as if it is easy to become that level of player and ignoring his lack of physical tools (the ones that matter, length) in comparison to those guys, not to mention even at a skill level, those guys were way up there. He was a much better player in 13-14, 14-15 and beyond than his rookie season. People drool over rookie Blake dunking on people, but the 11-12 and 12-13 playoffs (injury aside) showed that the version of Blake who couldn't shoot and tried to bully people was not anywhere close to being that effective in the playoffs. In the playoffs when teams game plan against you, when you're playing better defenses, that doesn't work unless you're freaking Shaq. Blake in his first few seasons would get taken out of his game by defenders like Bogut and Milicic, tall, strong guys who he couldn't bully inside and because he didn't have an outside game, he couldn't get....


Agent0
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jarca wrote:
Yup a bunch of people here is rewriting history as if Houston this year was guaranteed a WCF spot

Even PageC4 say many commentators believed Houston could take down GSW. Before the season begin I doubt it. If you could provide me with some links that have all these people predicting CP to Houston before the season would beat GSW please provide

Heck Clipjoe made this thread to make fun of CP because he himself thought CP made a huge mistake because the Rockets would be a second round exit.

Yea, we just have to clock back one page to see part of the OP that says:

    I am sure there was a wink wink going on in Houston about trading for Melo in there. There is no other logical reason for him to leave to a team where he will become the secondary ball-handler or at the very least, sacrifice his game to make it work. That will obviously take a hit come time to re-up. He will not get the same amount of money even if he doesn't decline. The mere fact that he will be 33yrs old , means he ain't ever going to see that kind of money again...And still no Melo! The Irony in all of this is that Melo ended up on the better team...On paper, that is. CP3 ended up as a redundant piece on a weaker team after we fleeced them of their future talent. Or at the very least, their future depth.

We go from OKC being a better team on paper, which I even forgot about when mentioning teams were felt would compete with the Warriors, and at least according to clipperjoe, Paul being on a weaker team because we fleeced them of their future talent to Paul not supposedly joining a true contender? I don't know guys...

Then pageC4 said this:

    I don't necessarily think Houston is the biggest threat to Golden State in the west. San Antonio and Oklahoma City, if healthy, pose a greater risk. With that being said, I think Paul may find himself in a very similar situation in Houston, which is going fishing by the second round. If that does indeed come true, Paul will have to acknowledge that he too fell short, not just his teammates.

Now Houston is in the WCF and the history revision is that they were some sort of guaranteed WCF and Paul just joined a team that would easily go this far? At least don't make conflicting comments in the same thread Wink


toohipcliptoslip
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For those of you who compare eras, this is the difference between Old School and now. This was a common foul. I watched Durant drive to the hoop. In the day he would be a jump shooter or be decapitated PERIOD. Draymond would have met Bill Lambier - a lot. LAC_12 as far as exaggeration, every artist is allowed poetic license. That's my excuse. Why was HOU a contender? Assume that our Big Three had worked. Throw in Leonard.

HOU threw in Paul to close a hole. Either it would have been a disaster or magic. It was magic. BG didn't give a sh*t. In the PO's Malone had to be restrained from going on the court with a blown knee. Petit played with a cast. If BG really wanted to he could have played with the toe injury. Speaking of CP, he didn't dribble out the clock. Warriors still win. We keep Lou so next year won't be a disaster.

I felt good about this team last yr and i feel better if JW comes through. However I just finished a bottle of Pinot Gregio. Drink it only if there's nothing else i the house.

Chuck the verb is conjugated: I do he DOES.


jarca
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Agent0 wrote:
Amare w up there. He was a much better player in 13-14, 14-15 and

What people fail to take into account is that rookie Blake was playing on a meh team. He didn't play much defense, he put his energy into getting his. When the team got better and Blake had to play defense, and furthermore actually try to play it well and put energy there, people expected him to have the same energy on offense. Also we have to take into account that as the team got better his minutes went down, fewer minutes, fewer stats. His scoring rate and per possessions scoring in his rookie year was the 3rd lowest of his career. The only years he had less were 11-12 and 12-13. Every season from 13-14 on were higher scoring rate and all but 15-16 because of injury and this season for a lot of reasons were more efficient (including 11-12 and 12-13 being more efficient).

.

Great points as always Agent0!

Just found it interesting that Blake efficiency rate increased as his number of games played and minutes decreased from 2013 and beyond.

I think people here have brought it up before but Blake is always Mr. October-December. That’s his MVP level months and then get hurt. So who knows if he could have really kept those stats out for a full season like a true all star/ superstar.

I think we’re in agreement that he’s not a definitive 2.0 version of Amare


Griffinforpresident
Clipper Starter
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votes: 7

Wow, warriors choked big time in game 4.

Shades of the clips being up on rockets by a sizable margin in the fourth quarter only to be taken away from them.

How does it feel, warrior fans?!?!


Clemenza
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Epic game! CP3 and Harden stepped up big tonight! Didn't think they had it in them


sz123456
CNS MVP X1
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I'm predicting Warriors road win in game 5, followed by Rockets road win in game 6. Game 7 goes to whoever is less injured -- probably the Warriors. Gotta hand it to Mike D'antoni, the man is dead set on losing this series. It never fails, Whether it was his fantastic Phoenix teams, or even his past Rockets teams: 7-man rotation in the playoffs. Injury-prone players like CP3 playing 44 minutes a game. Horrible coach in the post season.


toohipcliptoslip
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Hat's off to CP3. Maybe he didn't have a good enough team here. DJ was not Capella. We didn't have Ariza or ERIC GORDON. Our Golden Boy was not Harden. Two of our "Big Three" are a bust.

BUT CP3 routinely choked, however every team great team has a #2 like Pippen to Jordan or Satchel to Paige.


Snafu
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CP3 hasn't gotten a playoff ending injury, that helps. If CP3 and Harden can manage to beat the Warriors that will be a big middle finger to Doc and the Clippers.


Clemenza
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toohipcliptoslip wrote:
Hat's off to CP3. Maybe he didn't have a good enough team here. DJ was not Capella. We didn't have Ariza or ERIC GORDON. Our Golden Boy was not Harden. Two of our "Big Three" are a bust.

BUT CP3 routinely choked, however every team great team has a #2 like Pippen to Jordan or Satchel to Paige.

Its well known that Doc inherited Blake, CP3, DJ and never put anything around them in the last six years.


Agent0
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Good enough team for what? To get to the WCF? Yes, we did, but health only gave the team two real chances to do so, that's a big problem. To win a championship? We never had a team that would be the favourite, and I don't know if the Clippers ever had a team that could get past round 3. Not ever getting a 1 or 2 seed at some point proved that.

I complained about defense all the time when we always defaulted to blaming offense. Look at how the Rockets have defended in their wins. If you defend well enough as a team, you can overcome failures in other aspects. If as a team you have to almost always rely on your offense and shooting performing well to win, then I don't believe you can truly contend because every team has times when those things don't come through and you have to find ways to win.

CP could always defend, he'll hack and claw and hold if he has to, but he will make an pretty big impact on defense despite his size, even if he gets blown by here and there, etc. Harden was actually very good on defense last night too, that was big, so he can actually bring it when he focuses, could Blake do that at his position, maybe, I don't know, but Josh Smith and Terrence Jones torched him in the back end of the Houston series. Talent wise and shooting wise and all those things, that isn't the real difference in supporting cast, it is more size on the perimeter and better defense. Rockets are also a two man team heavily reliant on two guys, and then with a bench chucker, but Ariza, Tucker and Gordon are/play bigger than the Clippers wings and are superior defenders.

If the Clippers, even with CP and Blake who is not as good as Harden, surrounded them with similar defense, we likely don't give up as many points to Houston in game 6 despite bad offense, that gives you a win. Maybe they pull it off against OKC, who knows. Obviously it all does nothing for all the injury seasons to Paul and Griffin if those happen again, so still, it's only relevant for 13-14 and 14-15, and I'm not sure it means championship, though at least WCF.

Griffinforpresident wrote:
Wow, warriors choked big time in game 4.

Shades of the clips being up on rockets by a sizable margin in the fourth quarter only to be taken away from them.

How does it feel, warrior fans?!?!

Warriors scored 12 points in the 4th, it was quite the choke job. They were 51-0 when up double digits after the third before this game I believe.


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