Clippers Season Autopsy

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SamMays
CNS MVP X2
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The Clippers 2016-17 season is over with another first round playoff exit. This accepts the idea that we have virtually no chance of beating Utah twice in a row. Even if we did somehow pull off a miracle, we would then have literally no chance of beating Golden State in a best of seven.

Let's start with Doc. While his value as a coach can be debated, I don't think there is much debate that he's been a lousy GM. Sure, he has kept the big three together, but winning 50+ a year makes that a fairly minor accomplishment. What has he done to surround them with talent? The answer is abject failure. I no longer care one way or the other if he continues coaching this team. But he must not continue as GM. Look at what he has put on the floor.

Our starting small forward is Luc Mbah a Moute, who was almost out of the league. Luc is a fine defender, but at the offensive end, our opposition doesn't even guard him on the perimeter, using his defender to clog the middle and make life tougher for Chris Paul and Blake Griffin. He signed Wesley Johnson to an 18-million dollar contract and Wesley sucks. The Lakers were one of the worst teams in the league two years ago, gave Wesley plenty of minute and decided he wasn't worth keeping. 18-million dollars. I have to believe there are at least 5 guys in the d-league who are better and would have upside at a tenth the price. Anderson also took a roster spot that should have gone to a young d-leaguer who might surprise.

Doc's insistence on veterans at all costs is doing incredible damage to this franchise. A franchise simply has to find the good, surprising, young player on occasion. Don't even get me started on Paul Pierce. For Doc's entire tenure here the SF spot has been a black hole on this team that he has failed miserably at filling. I can only assume since he is so busy coaching, he doesn't have time to evaluate college and d-league players. He brings in the stiffs he knows. Hell, he even had Joe Engles in camp and he whiffed on that call too.

JJ Redick would be a great shooter off the bench, but he's too limited to be a starter on a big-time team. You see it game after game; he starts out great, but by the fourth quarter his legs are gone from running off so many picks that he almost never makes the big shot when you need it. He should be a 20-minute a game man. His lack of length for the position makes him a liability at the defensive end, despite his effort and willingness to take a charge. Jamal Crawford disappears every playoffs and if I never see him play another game in a Clipper uniform, I will be the better for it. We don't need a volume shooter who doesn't defend and who disappears when you need him most.

Austin Rivers is a marginal backup swing guard who plays hard and can get to the hoop. Whether we keep him or not is almost immaterial. The rest of our bench full of castoffs can be replaced easily.

That brings us to the big three. CP3 is simply amazing, but he cannot carry a team on his back through the playoffs. Hell, Michael Jordan couldn't in his early days. I know a lot of us want Chris to be a more aggressive scoring threat, but he's a pure PG. He knows what he's doing and how he should play. He can turn it on when he has to (not always successfully) but he could never do it for a season. Now, at 32, he really only has a few good years left. When his athleticism starts to deteriorate, it will do so quickly. The idea of giving him another long-term contract is a bad one.

The idea of keeping this big three intact fits the definition of insanity; doing to same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Blake is a great player, but the holes in his game keep him from being a closer. Add to that, he has become injury prone. You can't build around him.

That leaves only DJ, who at 27, is in his prime with at least 8 productive years ahead of him. He's the one, and only one, you keep from this roster.

It's too bad we won't get any value for letting Blake and CP3 go, but that's Doc's fault. Danny Ainge knew exactly when to break up that Celtics team and he got maximum reward and a quick rebuild for it. Doc, as a GM, knows nothing.

I have been a diehard Clipper fan since the middle 80s. I suffered through all the 12-win teams and I have never hated a Clipper team as much as I dislike this current incarnation. They are unwatchable. I actually found myself rooting for the Jazz last night, hoping it would speed the breakup of this team.

We all know hindsight is 20/20, but i doubt one of us can say hanging on to Blake turned out to be a wise move. Well, it will be the same with CP3, JJ Redick, Griffin (again) and the rest of this team if we fail to move off of them again this year.

Please, Ballmer, put this team out of my misery.


DairoQ-
Clipper Rookie
Posts: 63

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I just hope that the Doc Rivers and Jamal Crawford era will finish soon.


socaldubber
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 42
Location: Orange County
votes: 1

I'm not looking forward to the idea of having Melo on this team


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5929
votes: 94

socaldubber wrote:
I'm not looking forward to the idea of having Melo on this team

Oh God. Not only would that be a continuation of the nightmare, it would actually be an escalation of it.


pageC4
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The problem is that very few people see the situation with Paul for what it really is. I'm going to preface this with giving credit to Paul for playing a very, very good series against Utah. The way he has been pushing the tempo is exactly what I want him to be doing. If he would play like this the entire season people wouldn't criticize him so much. But I'm glad you mentioned that Paul can "turn it on when he has to but could never do it for a season." Paul has his moments when he can take over the game and be a scoring threat, but they are becoming fewer and father in between now. In the regular season Paul was only putting up 18.1 PPG, 9.2 APG, and 5.0 RPG, while in the playoffs he's putting up 27 PPG, 10.4 APG, and 5.6 RPG. So essentially in the playoffs he is averaging 9 points more per game. He isn't throwing that many more assists, or rebounding more, but he is scoring a hell of a whole lot. That's incredible, but as you said he can't do that for a season. This is a problem because if he had been playing this good in regular season I do believe that our seeding and opponent in the playoffs could have been different. Compare that to Stephen Curry who averages 25.3 PPG, 6.6 APG, and 4.5 RPG in the regular season but 29.8 PPG, 6.5 APG, and 5.3 RPG in the postseason. That's not a drastic change (only 4 more points per game in the post season). Russel westbrook also jumps a few points more as well in the playoffs (5.8 PPG, 0.9 RPG, and 0.4 APG more in the playoffs than in the regular season). However the jump between....


TheDude
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good post Sam. Funny you mention never hating a team more than this one, I been thinking same thing all season. I been a diehard Clip fan since moving to LA from the midwest in 2000. season tickets for a while in the bad years....Never went to less games or paid less attention than this year. They seemed like dead men walking from day 1. You run a roster out there with all this dead weight and these same 5 guys that have never come close to making noise in the playoffs. Giving all that money....


BluesBro
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 152
votes: 3

I also think the best thing for DJ's development of an offensive game would to see Blake and CP3 leave. Make him the first/second offensive option and essentially force him to be an offensive threat beyond lobs and putbacks. At this point, I really don't care what happens on Friday. I would love to win and win on Sunday, but if we don't, no love lost.


ClipperPostman
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5662
votes: 46

I def would give s long term deal to cp3. Paul will be effective until he is 37 simple because he plays below the rim. He probably has 2 more high level years in him.

unless we are saying we want to rank and go back to bottom feeders in the NBA which I don't, we need cp3.

You really think top talent is coming to play for the clippers without cp3?

I'm not sure why cp3 should go harder in the "regular season"... wtf... the point is to win in the playoffs and turn your game up a level. Who cares about freaking regular season stats once your in the playoffs.

Sorry but I don't remotely understand that logic.

I'd take a guy who goes to another level in the postseason than a guy like Lowry who shines in regular season and shrivels up in the post season.

I'd also sign Blake to a 5 year deal immediately this offseason and look to trade him by January or in the summer 2018.

The reason is Blake is a free agent so he can just walk, and clippers won't have the cap room to sign a top level talent anyway.

I say sign him, let him raise his stock in 2017 early season then trade him for Paul George.

JJ needs to be replaced with a Sg/Sf who may not shoot as well but is long enough to defend and can finish strong at the rim.

Luc definitely wasn't on his way out the league. His defense is valuable in the NBA. Although I'd rather him come off the bench as a specialist.

Crawford needs to do the right thing and retire and go play in Ice Cubes 3v3 league.

Unfortunately I don't have faith in doc to make any of the right moves so I wouldn't be surprised to see the exact same team on the floor next year.


laboy
Clipper Starter
Posts: 894
votes: 10

You are right on the money with Chris Paul. Blake...well we should have traded him in february. The thing that worry's me is the cap and how we cannot get any good players. We have 3 shooting guards???? Do we resign JJ? With the cap we are stuck having to. I have it at 50-50 that Blake walks and pulls a Durant on us. On the Coach and the President of Basketball Operations....I think there is progress on the later...the coaching..I think he has to get some better assistants!!!!!!! and stress Defense!


BluesBro
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 152
votes: 3

If JJ doesn't sign with the Clips again, I don't see him being a starter in this league anymore. Even then, I hope we upgrade and bring him off the bench. Hopefully we can sucker some team into taking Jamal and Wes for a draft pick. Hopefully Doc at least tries to get SOMETHING from Boston for Pierce instead of just waiving him.


Clemenza
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1335
votes: 17

Good post SamMays.. I feel the same way. With Jamal, Pierce, Wes, Bass, Alan Anderson, Luc, etc- There's D Leaguer 's or rookies out there that can give you the same output with higher upside than these guys we have on the team. Seriously, how big of a gap in talent, if there's any at all, is there between Brice and Diamond as opposed to Bass, Spieghts, Luc and company? Not much imo. Its crazy that Doc gave Wes Johnson that huge payday and now he can't stand the sight of him. Jamal is now un-trad-able cause of his new outrageous deal. The coaching staff wanted to bring Hassan Whiteside in for a workout, Doc said no. He cut Joe Ingles. I read a few comments on another board that Doc could've asked for Middleton from the Bucks, an unknown then, when we threw in that 1st round pick to take Jared Dudley off our hands. I also heard numerous times that Demare DeRozon for Eric Bledsoe straight up was on the table, etc etc etc.

-even if we were to sack up and comeback to win this series against Utah, how ugly and embarrassing will things get for us against Golden State? You mean to tell me CP3 has to outscore Curry, Durant, Clay, Draymond, and company all by his lonesome?? I'm pulling for the team but I really don't want to see Paul and the franchise go through that right now. GS will be up 25 and CP3, while trying to hard, might pull a hamstring ..not to mention the sideline shots of Blake in street clothes laughing at whatever-- and this will be game 2.

-if Ballmer doesn't make any changes at the end of the season f*ck him!


ClipperDB
Clipper Starter
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TheDude wrote:
good post Sam. Funny you mention never hating a team more than this one, I been thinking same thing all season. I been a diehard Clip fan since moving to LA from the midwest in 2000. season tickets for a while in the bad years....Never went to less games or paid less attention than this year. They seemed like dead men walking from day 1. You run a roster out there with all this dead weight and these same 5 guys that have never come close to making noise in the playoffs. Giving all that money....


HooRob
Clipper D-League Pickup
Posts: 43
votes: 0

Trade Blake Griffin for carmelo, bring in dwade for less money since he would want to play with freinds, i rather have a old team competing and over the luxury tax then the same old team with a maxed out cap and first or at best second round exit


WinningBasket
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Is there anyone here in the Clippers' fandom who has an optimistic viewpoint of the team and the team's chances in Game 6? I need a good pep talk if that is even possible. ESPN BPI forecasts a 75% chance the Utah Jazz will win this series and with the way the team has been playing, this stat seems realistic. I am feeling the same resigned way as most everyone here on this board --- Clips are unlikely to do anything worthwhile and it's just a shame how things have shaken out for what was once a very promising season. Man,....


BluesBro
Clipper 6th Man
Posts: 152
votes: 3

I still believe we can win this series, but I think we all have checked out and given up because we all know we're toast against GSW. We beat Utah once at home this series, we can do it again. We beat them once at home this series, we can do it again. We lost all four games to GSW this season, we can probably steal one game but were out in 5 if we move on. I think we a;; just want a breath of fresh air after this season is over. Whether that is a change in management or players, something has to happen. I don't care if its a major rebuild, fire Doc, hire a legit GM, anything new. Clearly what we have had for the past 5-6 seasons is dysfunctional when it comes to the endgame. I imagine us resigning CP3, but I think Blake walks. I just hope we can get something for him, even if its a couple draft picks.

As for Game 6 specifically, I would love to see Doc start Bass alongside DJ. Bass to me is a poor mans Griffin and at least plays his heart out. Jamal has to hit his shots. I expect CP3 to give everything he has. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays 40+ minutes. It's weird, I've been an Austin fan since last playoffs, but I have totally even forgotten he's available. It would be a nice surprise if he can make a difference. I say we win by 8, or lose by 28. Let's at least go out with some fight.

I hope I brought you some optimism, I think we all desperately need it.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5929
votes: 94

I have come around to the opinion that Doc has to go. I defended him for a long time, but his unwillingness or inability to find young players (any at all) has destroyed any chance this team might have had to break through to the next level, from good team to a team that has a chance to win it all. We just don't.

Sure, he can keep this team together and watch us slowly go downhill, 53 wins, 49 wins, 45 wins, before facing the inevitable need to rebuild. I don't find much excitement in that.

I take issue with a few things written above. First that Paul will remain excellent through his 37th year. Tiny Archibald was done as a premiere player at 33 and had been slipping prior to that. Calvin Murphy's last year as a great player was 31, Allen Iverson 32, John Stockton played until 40m but there was a noticeable drop off at 35, Isiah Thomas was done at 32, Earl Monroe 32. CP3 is a great player, but the idea that he will remain great for a full five year contract is wishful thinking. Small guards don't last and when they start down hill the drop is a hard, fast one.

With ridiculous contracts given to Crawford and Wesley we have guys on long-term deals who are not assets and prevent the team's growth. Add Paul Pierce to that list over the last two years. Tell me there aren't 20 guys in the d-league or in Europe who aren't far better than Pierce.

I do think we should get rid of Blake and get something for him. Same with CP3. The only way to do that is to sign on trade them. I don't want to ride this lame wave another year. The future starts with the removal of Doc as the GM.


Onetime
Clipper D-League Pickup
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votes: 3

Paul and DJ stay for sure. Its time for Blake to become great elsewhere and then we build with seasoned players 26-30 years old.


ClipperPostman
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SamMays wrote:

I take issue with a few things written above. First that Paul will remain excellent through his 37th year. Tiny Archibald was done as a premiere player at 33 and had been slipping prior to that. Calvin Murphy's last year as a great player was 31, Allen Iverson 32, John Stockton played until 40m but there was a noticeable drop off at 35, Isiah Thomas was done at 32, Earl Monroe 32. CP3 is a great player, but the idea that he will remain great for a full five year contract is wishful thinking. Small guards don't last and when they start down hill the drop is a hard, fast oneGM.

If you are referring to my post you didn't read it right. Please quote me where I said Paul will remain excellent until he is 37. You made that up my friend.

I clearly said he has 2 more excellent years left.

But players like Paul don't fall off a cliff. Very high iq players who play below he rim that are primary playmakers are still effective in their later years.

Iverson plays nothing like Paul, and neither didThomas.

Tiny archibald completely different eras. You really gave only examples that fit you narrative lol.

Let's take john Stockton. He played until he was 40 and was an all star at 37:

He played all 82 games the last 4 years of his career. He still average about 12-8 on less minutes.

Let's look at Steve Nash. At 37 he was an all star and still a very effective player in his mid 30's.

Jason Kidd who was also an all star at 36 and still an effective player.

These are just a few examples, but high iq playmakers generally last the longest and are most effective even in their later years.

Cp3 needs to stay because though you enjoyed losing seasons and never making it to the playoffs, the majority of the fans didn't and we want to win and at least be able to watch this team post season.

And I'm sure ballmer didn't spend 2 billion to watch this become a lottery team in 3 years


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
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Nash was 6'3" and Jason Kidd was 6'4". Kidd no longer scored double figures after age 33. He was a solid complimentary player. And late-in-life all-star nods tend to be career achievement awards, not an example of excellent play.

And, I am not going to bother to look it up, but I would suspect most of these fading elites played on declining salaries. I know Kidd made 3-million in his last year. Paul will be sucking the life out of the salary cap at over 20-million a year when he's in decline. We know how much Kobe and a few others delayed their teams from rebuilding because they were committed to huge paydays for players in decline. Maybe the reward was worth it and fair. I take the New England Patriot approach.


Agent0
CNS MVP X3
Posts: 11641
votes: 98

Let Redick go, resign Paul and Blake. No point just letting them go for nothing it doesn't benefit the team.

Try to trade Blake for Paul George or Jimmy Butler in January, if not for them, trade him and get multiple assets from somewhere. The reason I say Blake is that he is the one that can get your one of those players and it seems like people are frustrated with his injuries.

Trade Austin and Crawford for Carmelo. I don't care THAT much for Carmelo, but those two combine to make more than him. Carmelo also only has two years left, and not only that, his 2nd season is an ETO (early termination option) which he is likely to exercise to get his final long contract. So we wouldn't be committing to him long term.

Trade DJ. The reasoning here is the DJ has a player option in 2018-2019. DJ is great, but he's a complimentary high level role player. A new contract will be giving him a decent chunk of change. Two ways you can trade him, first is to trade him at draft night, but you have to consider how the might affect resigning Blake and Paul. The other is to trade him later in the season. I like the draft option as the Clippers can get into the lottery with that trade.

Next season:

Chris Paul

Lottery Pick SG?

Paul George or Jimmy Butler if possible

Carmelo Anthony

Center

If not George or Butler, you get some solid role players / picks. You see what you can do next season with your roster, then summer 2018 you have options for who you want to bring back, so you want to trade and what kind of team you can build.

Ideally it would be Chris Paul, Paul George or Jimmy Butler or the players you got from trading Blake, and the draft pick from trading DJ. The reason I don't also trade Paul is if you get George or Butler you're not resigning them by offering them a lottery team roster. Depending on what kind of contract you can get, maybe, maybe you resign Carmelo but I don't know.

That would be my plan, maybe with some tweaks.


ClipperPostman
CNS MVP X2
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Agent0 wrote:

Ideally it would be Chris Paul, Paul George or Jimmy Butler or the players you got from trading Blake, and the draft pick from trading DJ. The reason I don't also trade Paul is if you get George or Butler you're not resigning them by offering them a lottery team roster. Depending on what kind of contract you can get, maybe, maybe you resign Carmelo but I don't know.

.

I like your plan for the most part. Sounds similar to mine except the Trade DJ. There is no way in hell i trust this organization to Trade DJ on draft night and trust Doc is going to draft a useful player. Doc will probably draft an undersized Shooter, who he won't play for the entire season because his last name isn't rivers.

If we must trade DJ I would rather do it for players and with a team where we can get a defensive minded center in return (maybe not as good as DJ) and some other assets. Maybe a Bismack Biyombo and some complimentary players.

I think a solid GM could flip Blake for Paul George. But I think ultimately the question is will CP3 resign on this team. According to Big Baby's last interview Blake and cp3 Can't stand each other, so that could be a durant westbrook situation.


Agent0
CNS MVP X3
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SamMays wrote:
Nash was 6'3" and Jason Kidd was 6'4". Kidd no longer scored double figures after age 33. He was a solid complimentary player. And late-in-life all-star nods tend to be career achievement awards, not an example of excellent play.

And, I am not going to bother to look it up, but I would suspect most of these fading elites played on declining salaries. I know Kidd made 3-million in his last year. Paul will be sucking the life out of the salary cap at over 20-million a year when he's in decline. We know how much Kobe and a few others delayed their teams from rebuilding because they were committed to huge paydays for players in decline. Maybe the reward was worth it and fair. I take the New England Patriot approach.

Yea, Kidd actually got the max at 30 years old and it lasted for 6 seasons until he was 35 years old. He was traded at 33 years old for 24 year old Devin Harris and two 1st round picks (Ryan Anderson and Jordan Crawford)

Paul with a 5 year contract would be signed until he is 36 years old. I agree that he's a skill player and he'll still be effective, but that's a lot of money. He'll likely be at a level similar to this for three more seasons, then at an All-Star but not superstar level for his last three seasons.

The way it works is if you proportionally make the rest of the team have more younger players on rookie contracts along with Paul and whatever other star you have.


clippyclip
Clipper Starter
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http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/24 ... e-Griffin.

Welp, there it is. I mean, sure that doesn't really mean anything until July comes and goes and we see what ACTUALLY happens, but the way it's looking, it's going to be totally awesome to duplicate this thread a year from now.


bballman
Clipper Starter
Posts: 930
votes: 8

I say we have to re-sign CP and Blake. Even if they lose in the 1st or 2nd round again. Just like the Lakers do with their stars. The team has to show that if stars come to play here,they will be rewarded in the end. Sure,they haven't made it to the promise land,but this has been the most star studded group in history. If all the stars leave and get paid somewhere else,it will be "new owner,same cheapskate organization." It may set the team back a few years but it will help their reputation as an organization. Besides,it's not like you can let a max player go and go pick up another max player. Being over the cap,if you lose one of these players,you get to sign a minimum or midlevel exception player to replace him.


Clemenza
Clipper All-Star
Posts: 1335
votes: 17

bballman wrote:
I say we have to re-sign CP and Blake. Even if they lose in the 1st or 2nd round again. Just like the Lakers do with their stars. The team has to show that if stars come to play here,they will be rewarded in the end. Sure,they haven't made it to the promise land,but this has been the most star studded group in history. If all the stars leave and get paid somewhere else,it will be "new owner,same cheapskate organization." It may set the team back a few years but it will help their reputation as an organization. Besides,it's not like you can let a max player go and go pick up another max player. Being over the cap,if you lose one of these players,you get to sign a minimum or midlevel exception player to replace him.

That cheapskate title is long gone from our organization. Plus the super star/star free agent market is all but gone with this new CBA. Also nobody/fans of other teams would question us by letting Blake walk or get traded. Nobody really considers him a star player anymore anyways. Can't be a star if you're injured a third of the regular season and every post season. Go to a few other boards. Everybody thinks we should blow this team up or trade Blake instead of giving him the max


LAC_12
CNS MVP X1
Posts: 3977
Location: NYC/LA
votes: 31

pageC4 wrote:

First, fans and the front office will look at the numbers and Blake's injury and come to two false conclusions. First, they will think that this 27 PPG average Paul has gained against Utah is characteristic of Paul...it's not.

Second, they will mistakenly believe that the reason this team hasn't gone further than the second round is because of an injury prone Blake Griffin. If only Paul had the right #2 guy they would have gone farther.

The issue here is that there is a lot of loyalty to Paul..blind loyalty. In reality, this team has not gone further than the second round for various reasons, 1of which is Paul himself. Joe already mentioned, correctly might I add, that even before coming to the Clippers Paul had never gone beyond the second round. Therefore, the blame can't always go to Paul's supporting cast. However, he is infallible here, but why is that?

  1. Many people mistakenly give Paul all credit for our playoff years, not factoring in that playoffs can only be achieved by a collective group not 1 individual. In their minds once Paul came here so did the playoffs..hence Paul did this because playoffs didn't come here during Blake's years without Paul.

  2. Many Clippers fans are actually not Clippers fans. When Paul came here so did fans who really only watch the games because of him. These fans were following New Orleans when he was over there, &they will likely follow the next team that Paul will join. So essentially they could care less about the success of failure of the Clippers. Their prime objective is to see Paul maintain his reputation, &seeing a team trade Paul after multiple early playoff exits hurts his reputation &legacy.

LOL, I completely disagree with what you've said. Respectfully.


bballman
Clipper Starter
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votes: 8

Clemenza wrote:
That cheapskate title is long gone from our organization. Plus the super star/star free agent market is all but gone with this new CBA. Also nobody/fans of other teams would question us by letting Blake walk or get traded. Nobody really considers him a star player anymore anyways. Can't be a star if you're injured a third of the regular season and every post season. Go to a few other boards. Everybody thinks we should blow this team up or trade Blake instead of giving him the max
true,but if stars believe they will be taken care of even when they've lost a step,they will come. If they believe they will be let go once they age,they will look elsewhere. Clippers have not yet done anything to show that they will take care of their stars. These are arguably the biggest stars ever to wear a Clippers uniform.


bballman
Clipper Starter
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Clemenza wrote:
That cheapskate title is long gone from our organization. Plus the super star/star free agent market is all but gone with this new CBA. Also nobody/fans of other teams would question us by letting Blake walk or get traded. Nobody really considers him a star player anymore anyways. Can't be a star if you're injured a third of the regular season and every post season. Go to a few other boards. Everybody thinks we should blow this team up or trade Blake instead of giving him the max
doesn't really matter what other fans think. It's about what the star players think.


SamMays
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5929
votes: 94

The New England Patriots do not reward their stars by giving them fat contracts after their star days are over, as the Lakers did with Kobe. That is counter productive. You want to get good players to come here, show them that you know how to win and will do what it takes to win. Players respect that.

You give CP3 a fat contract for the next five years, the last three of them we will be regretting.


Keatonsays
Clipper All-Star
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As much as I'd love to speculate and suggest what I think we should do, i'm very confident Doc is going to bring everyone back on ridiculous contracts and we'll once again try our luck with the annual exceptions (mid and mini-mid) and a bevy of minimum contracts like very year.

200 mil for Paul

150 mil for Blake

75+mil for JJ

If we're lucky we can move Jamal or Austin for a young 3 (i like kyle anderson) but don't expect anything different from what we've seen over the years.


SteveBaller
Clipper Starter
Posts: 806
votes: 12

Chris Paul simply does not have the history of serious non-contact structural injuries that Blake Griffin does. Regardless of age, it would be foolish to predict a more positive career outlook for Griffin than Paul at this juncture.

You think the Utah Jazz wish they had traded John Stockton at age 31?

I am aware that CP3 is not the same otherworldly Iron Man that Stockton was. He is, however, a significantly higher impact player than Stockton ever was; especially in the postseason. Assuming a gradual decline, Chris Paul will likely continue to be better than John Stockton was at the same age...What more could you seriously ask for out of our future Hall of Famer?

Some of the comments here make me wonder if people actually realize this dude happens to be the greatest player in franchise history...There's a part of me that hopes he goes to San Antonio just so the statistically illiterate "eye-test" crowd can bask in the glory of watching Blake Griffin lead this team straight to the lottery.


SteveBaller
Clipper Starter
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votes: 12

Take note of the projected five year market values:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/ca ... hris-paul/

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/ca ... e-griffin/

TLDR: Chris Paul is likely to outperform the value of his next contract. Blake Griffin is NOT.


LAC_12
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SteveBaller wrote:

Some of the comments here make me wonder if people actually realize this dude happens to be the greatest player in franchise history...There's a part of me that hopes he goes to San Antonio just so the statistically illiterate "eye-test" crowd can bask in the glory of watching Blake Griffin lead this team straight to the lottery.

My thoughts... preach!


clipfan63
CNS MVP X1
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cliffpaul wrote:
I still believe we can win this series, but I think we all have checked out and given up because we all know we're toast against GSW. We beat Utah once at home this series, we can do it again. We beat them once at home this series, we can do it again. We lost all four games to GSW this season, we can probably steal one game but were out in 5 if we move on. I think we a;; just want a breath of fresh air after this season is over. Whether that is a change in management or players, something has to happen. I don't care if its a major rebuild, fire Doc, hire a legit GM, anything new. Clearly what we have had for the past 5-6 seasons is dysfunctional when it comes to the endgame. I imagine us resigning CP3, but I think Blake walks. I just hope we can get something for him, even if its a couple draft picks.

As for Game 6 specifically, I would love to see Doc start Bass alongside DJ. Bass to me is a poor mans Griffin and at least plays his heart out. Jamal has to hit his shots. I expect CP3 to give everything he has. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays 40+ minutes. It's weird, I've been an Austin fan since last playoffs, but I have totally even forgotten he's available. It would be a nice surprise if he can make a difference. I say we win by 8, or lose by 28. Let's at least go out with some fight.

I hope I brought you some optimism, I think we all desperately need it.

Well, then you probably won't like that it was reported today that Doc is seriously considering starting Pierce. Don't build yourself up expecting a win, not going to happen. Doc's too stuck in the past to see that Pierce is beyond washed up and useless except as a cheerleader. This team is playing terrible right now and missing one of our main scorers, this series ends in six unfortunately.


Clemenza
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Repped High Quality Post

bballman wrote:
true,but if stars believe they will be taken care of even when they've lost a step,they will come. If they believe they will be let go once they age,they will look elsewhere. Clippers have not yet done anything to show that they will take care of their stars. These are arguably the biggest stars ever to wear a Clippers uniform.

Stars want to win and play with their pals. Clipps already proven they pay stars and scrubs big money.. They already paid CP3, Blake, DJ.. all the way down to fat deals for Austin, Jamal, and Wes Johnson. Trust me no stars are thinking we're cheap anymore. This isn't 2005 anymore its 2017. We're probably the only team that will still acts like Blake is a star and give him the max. Have you seen him in a Kia ad lately? He's not really considered a star anymore. Melo would come here, Paul George would come here, etc. No 'star' players frown on the Clippers anymore as far as getting paid, that's over with.


BluesBro
Clipper 6th Man
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clipfan63 wrote:
Well, then you probably won't like that it was reported today that Doc is seriously considering starting Pierce. Don't build yourself up expecting a win, not going to happen. Doc's too stuck in the past to see that Pierce is beyond washed up and useless except as a cheerleader. This team is playing terrible right now and missing one of our main scorers, this series ends in six unfortunately.
I agree, Pierce should not be seeing any floor time whatsoever, but he won't be the reason we lose this game and this series. It's going to take a total team effort. We have to play flawless basketball if we want a chance. Is that a long shot? Yes. Is it out of the question? No way.


bballman
Clipper Starter
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Clemenza wrote:
Stars want to win and play with their pals. Clipps already proven they pay stars and scrubs big money.. They already paid CP3, Blake, DJ.. all the way down to fat deals for Austin, Jamal, and Wes Johnson. Trust me no stars are thinking we're cheap anymore. This isn't 2005 anymore its 2017. We're probably the only team that will still acts like Blake is a star and give him the max. Have you seen him in a Kia ad lately? He's not really considered a star anymore. Melo would come here, Paul George would come here, etc. No 'star' players frown on the Clippers anymore as far as getting paid, that's over with.
that is what I mean. When we pay Blake,it will send that message. I am not saying that is the only reason stars will come. I am just saying that it helps, but I see your point.


pageC4
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SteveBaller wrote:

Some of the comments here make me wonder if people actually realize this dude happens to be the greatest player in franchise history...There's a part of me that hopes he goes to San Antonio just so the statistically illiterate "eye-test" crowd can bask in the glory of watching Blake Griffin lead this team straight to the lottery.

Chris Paul is the greatest player in franchise history, no doubt. However, is that because Paul is that great of a player or is it because our franchise has been that bad? Where would he rank in terms of all time greatest franchise players on successful clubs like the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, or others...probably not as high as you think. Chris Paul being the best player in clippers history is a useless award and should not exempt him from trade if it improves the team long term. No matter how good a player was historically, at some point you have to move on from a player and not commit to him long term if he is entering his later years, which Paul is.

As for a dichotomy on who should lead this team and who we should build around... It should be neither Paul of Griffin. Griffin should be traded away as well. If this team were to be blown up with only one star player it would go straight to the lottery, no matter who it would he, Paul wouldn't be an exception to that rule. He would also gloriously lead the clippers to the lottery if he had no help. The great Kobe Bryant proved you can't do it alone.

Bottom line this team should be rebuilt from Doc, Griffin, Paul and all the other vets...its over.


ClipperPostman
CNS MVP X2
Posts: 5662
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pageC4 wrote:
Chris Paul is the greatest player in franchise history, no doubt. However, is that because Paul is that great of a player or is it because our franchise has been that bad? Where would he rank in terms of all time greatest franchise players on successful clubs like the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, or others...probably not as high as you think. Chris Paul being the best player in clippers history is a useless award and should not exempt him from trade if it improves the team long term. No matter how good a player was historically, at some point you have to move on from a player and not commit to him long term if he is entering his later years, which Paul is.

As for a dichotomy on who should lead this team and who we should build around... It should be neither Paul of Griffin. Griffin should be traded away as well. If this team were to be blown up with only one star player it would go straight to the lottery, no matter who it would he, Paul wouldn't be an exception to that rule. He would also gloriously lead the clippers to the lottery if he had no help. The great Kobe Bryant proved you can't do it alone.

Bottom line this team should be rebuilt from Doc, Griffin, Paul and all the other vets...its over.

So basically you're just trolling with no real thoughts on how to really turn this team around.

Lottery isn't sexy at all, and a team of this caliber shouldn't make it a freaking goal to get there.

It's stupid fantasy some here live in. Like we go to the lottery and magically draft the next lebron.


bballman
Clipper Starter
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ClipperPostman wrote:
So basically you're just trolling with no real thoughts on how to really turn this team around.

Lottery isn't sexy at all, and a team of this caliber shouldn't make it a freaking goal to get there.

It's stupid fantasy some here live in. Like we go to the lottery and magically draft the next lebron.

yeah,look at the Lakers,Wolves,Magic,Sixers. They have been in the lottery for a few years now.


clipper*joe
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ClipperPostman wrote:
So basically you're just trolling with no real thoughts on how to really turn this team around.

Lottery isn't sexy at all, and a team of this caliber shouldn't make it a freaking goal to get there.

It's stupid fantasy some here live in. Like we go to the lottery and magically draft the next lebron.

Trolling? He has real thoughts and it's about blowing this MF'er up. At some point, you stop throwing good money at repacking the same tired product. Don't you find it funny that it's getting a lot more expensive keeping this team together with worse results each year? I warned about this before giving out our third max contract. So now people are worried about the future? Please. Pagec4 is right. It's now time to get rid of all three of our max contracts. I don't care that CP3 is our best player all-time...it's still doesn't change the fact that he, or the Clippers have never been out of the 2nd round in both their histories. Isn't that what really matters? Or are you about the player more than the team? I never wanted BG traded but I am at the point where I hope he leaves too since it looks like the Clippers want to keep him. And DJ? DJ will walk as soon they're gone because we know DJ can;'t handle being the man.

Too many short-sighted people here to see this is the Titanic and Ballmer and Doc are just rearranging the chairs on it before it fully sinks. This thread is nice but I warned about this very thing seasons ago.


Dirtydunks
Clipper Starter
Posts: 532
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clipper*joe wrote:
Trolling? He has real thoughts and it's about blowing this MF'er up. At some point, you stop throwing good money at repacking the same tired product. Don't you find it funny that it's getting a lot more expensive keeping this team together with worse results each year? I warned about this before giving out our third max contract. So now people are worried about the future? Please. Pagec4 is right. It's now time to get rid of all three of our max contracts. I don't care that CP3 is our best player all-time...it's still doesn't change the fact that he, or the Clippers have never been out of the 2nd round in both their histories. Isn't that what really matters? Or are you about the player more than the team? I never wanted BG traded but I am at the point where I hope he leaves too since it looks like the Clippers want to keep him. And DJ? DJ will walk as soon they're gone because we know DJ can;'t handle being the man.

Too many short-sighted people here to see this is the Titanic and Ballmer and Doc are just rearranging the chairs on it before it fully sinks. This thread is nice but I warned about this very thing seasons ago.

i get your point but isn't it really about rings? It really does not matter whether you get past the 2nd round unless you win it all. This newfound standard of what round you get to means nothing and is a byproduct of your draw. I like the idea of always being in the playoffs with a chance. If we want to contend we need to keep our core and add better pieces around them. Trading one of them to get impact player(s) is also a possibility but the sad truth is as long as the Dubs are who they are it's going to very difficult to get by them. Beyond the entertainment factor it really doesn't matter to me whether we get to play another series or not if we don't advance past that point.


LAC_12
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OK so blowing the team up with NO CERTAINTY... Or swapping out parts, to fix a glaring issue? If I am tracking my car and trying to get break a PR, I look at the components of my car and try to upgrade. Maybe new tires, new tune, etc...

I DO NOT GO and sell my car and save up for 5-6 years to buy a newer car.

Just like getting beating a time on a track, there are a lot of OUTSIDE factors that matter - humidity, temperature, driver confidence, etc...

In the NBA... a LOT OF GREAT TEAMS do not win it. Some don't even get to the finals. But just because we have underperformed, doesn't mean we blow everything up. Objectively we have a GREAT PG and a GREAT CENTER.

Our POWER Forward no longer plays with power... and for the most part, no longer plays due to injuries. If he is not going to stay healthy, and WHEN healthy he is not going to use his power and speed who needs him? He is shooting, and he is NOT a good shooter. He is trying to recreate himself to what the team needs... and getting hurt in the process. It only makes sense to swap him out for a player that FITS better.

Why get rid of two pieces that are working? A two player team cannot get results in the NBA anymore... And our big 3 is not jelling. But why get rid of 3 players, when only one is the major problem.

Just my opinion.


clipper*joe
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LAC_12 wrote:
OK so blowing the team up with NO CERTAINTY... Or swapping out parts, to fix a glaring issue? If I am tracking my car and trying to get break a PR, I look at the components of my car and try to upgrade. Maybe new tires, new tune, etc...

I DO NOT GO and sell my car and save up for 5-6 years to buy a newer car.

Just like getting beating a time on a track, there are a lot of OUTSIDE factors that matter - humidity, temperature, driver confidence, etc...

In the NBA... a LOT OF GREAT TEAMS do not win it. Some don't even get to the finals. But just because we have underperformed, doesn't mean we blow everything up. Objectively we have a GREAT PG and a GREAT CENTER.

Our POWER Forward no longer plays with power... and for the most part, no longer plays due to injuries. If he is not going to stay healthy, and WHEN healthy he is not going to use his power and speed who needs him? He is shooting, and he is NOT a good shooter. He is trying to recreate himself to what the team needs... and getting hurt in the process. It only makes sense to swap him out for a player that FITS better.

Why get rid of two pieces that are working? A two player team cannot get results in the NBA anymore... And our big 3 is not jelling. But why get rid of 3 players, when only one is the major problem.

Just my opinion.

Sorry, CP3 is just as injury prone as BG. But since he's been our best player all-time, we live with his annual 20-30 game absence? That's the double standard here. On one hand, people are saying BG is too injury prone (I agree), and he should be the one leaving and on the other hand, they prop up the other player who is just as injury prone. I want to say i don't get it, but I get it.


SteveBaller
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Nope.

CP3 has missed 67 games since he arrived in LA in late 2011.

Blake Griffin has missed 68 games in just the last TWO seasons.


LAC_12
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I would not say CP3 is as injury prone as BG... He may be injury prone, but I can't remember last when BG was BG. How is it that we placed 4th when he was out for most of last year for punching a staff member. And we are 4th again with him semi missing games still?

Maybe that's a bad example...

The best example I can think of is the record for the Clippers "with CP3, without Blake" vs "with Blake, without CP3".

Or I am just going to fall back on the simplest of arguments... BG cannot shoot. He doesn't shoot with confidence, or at a high percentage, or at an average pace. So he ends up getting the ball, slowing the offense down, and missing - most times.

Why not just get a forward that can shoot?

I would argue to keep BG if BG was still using his athleticism and explosiveness to attack the rim... But he isn't. Just because his numbers are not terrible, does not mean he is not a net negative effect on the Clipper team. Yes, that is subjective and based off of my "eye test". But objectively, you cannot argue any of the points that cause me to make that statement. He disrupts the flow.

He is a superstar... but not the right fit.

Does that mean we replace him with another forward and we are champions? No. But that is where the problem is and that is where I would start. Instead of blowing it all up.


clipper*joe
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SteveBaller wrote:
Nope.

CP3 has missed 67 games since he arrived in LA in late 2011.

Blake Griffin has missed 68 games in just the last TWO seasons.

CP3's injuries didn't start when he came to LA.

edit:

You also have to put context into BG's broken hand. That incident happened off the court and is not a basketball related injury. If you want to pass that time off as part of his basketball injury history, that's cool.


SteveBaller
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And Blake's started when he missed his entire rookie season.

What's your point?


clipper*joe
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SteveBaller wrote:
And Blake's started when he missed his entire rookie season.

What's your point?

They're both injury prone? Hello!


SteveBaller
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You tried suggesting they were both equally injury prone. I disproved your false assertion. You persisted.

So, here are their career totals for regular-season games missed:

Chris Paul: 124 games missed in 12 seasons for an average of 10.3 games missed per season.

Blake Griffin: 189 games missed in 8 seasons for an average of 23.6 games missed per season.

Let me know if you need further clarification.


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